X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:52:23 -0400 (AST) From: James Boxall To: maphist@geog.uu.nl cc: maps-l Subject: [MapHist] Stockholm and Mulwat placename origin Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Help! We are about to have a faculty strike action and a couple of researchers have asked to find some info before their offices are closed (and before they miss deadlines for journals).... Anyone know the origin of STOCKHOLM ? and Anyone know anything about MULWAT? A small place? near the border of Scotland just north of Carlisle? Any help would be appreciated! James Boxall Curator/Head Map and Geospatial Information Collection Killam Library Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada B3H 4H8 902-494-3757 (tel) 902-494-2062 (fax) jcboxall@is.dal.ca magic.library.dal.ca Immediate Past-President, Association of Canadian Map Libraries and Archives (ACMLA) www.acmla.org _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 18:31:16 +0100 From: Göran Bäärnhielm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [sv] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Stockholm and Mulwat placename origin Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 As for STOCKHOLM (in Sweden), I'm afraid the question is far from simple. It means "Log Islet" and is documented since AD 1252, but what logs and why is not clear. Among explanations are defensive poles in the water, boundary poles or log traps, but there are others, e.g. stagnant water or derived from the name Stocksund ("Log Sound"), attested in the vicinity. The significance has been discussed since the 17th century, but remains enigmatic. Best regards Göran B James Boxall skrev: > > Help! We are about to have a faculty strike action and a couple of > researchers have asked to find some info before their offices are closed > (and before they miss deadlines for journals).... > > Anyone know the origin of STOCKHOLM ? > > and > > Anyone know anything about MULWAT? A small place? near the > border of Scotland just north of Carlisle? > > Any help would be appreciated! > > James Boxall > Curator/Head > Map and Geospatial Information Collection > Killam Library > Dalhousie University > Halifax, Nova Scotia > Canada B3H 4H8 > 902-494-3757 (tel) > 902-494-2062 (fax) > jcboxall@is.dal.ca > magic.library.dal.ca > > Immediate Past-President, Association of Canadian > Map Libraries and Archives (ACMLA) www.acmla.org > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl -- Göran Bäärnhielm, Map Curator Kungl. biblioteket - The Royal Library - National Library of Sweden P.O. Box 5039, SE-102 41 Stockholm, Sweden Tel.: +46-8-463 4180. Fax: +46-8-463 4328. E-mail: goran.baarnhielm@kb.se _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Cc: Maps-L@listserv.uga.edu Subject: RE: [MapHist] Stockholm and Mulwat placename origin Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:31:46 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Sorry we cannot help, we here are going home! And do you mean historical/archaeological or etymological origin of Stockholm? Either or both could be obtained from one of those funny old things called a book (e.g. paper copy of 'Encyclopedia Britannica' or 'Americana' or 'Canadiana'). My colleague David McNeill and I have both searched for "Mulwat" (online and on paper); it doesn't overmuch help would-be librarians/curators if the context to the question isn't given - is it Middle Ages, manuscript, etc.? Has anyone enquired of Cumbria County Archives? There is an English Placenames Society, co Dept of English Studies (or similar), Univ. of Nottingham (see annual paper 'World of Learning' for fax etc. if not on internet). Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps, RGS-IBG) f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'] > -----Original Message----- > From: James Boxall [SMTP:jcboxall@is.dal.ca] > Sent: 01 March 2002 16:52 > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Cc: maps-l > Subject: [MapHist] Stockholm and Mulwat placename origin > > Help! We are about to have a faculty strike action and a couple of > researchers have asked to find some info before their offices are closed > (and before they miss deadlines for journals).... > > Anyone know the origin of STOCKHOLM ? > > and > > Anyone know anything about MULWAT? A small place? near the > border of Scotland just north of Carlisle? > > Any help would be appreciated! > > > > > James Boxall > Curator/Head > Map and Geospatial Information Collection > Killam Library > Dalhousie University > Halifax, Nova Scotia > Canada B3H 4H8 > 902-494-3757 (tel) > 902-494-2062 (fax) > jcboxall@is.dal.ca > magic.library.dal.ca > > Immediate Past-President, Association of Canadian > Map Libraries and Archives (ACMLA) www.acmla.org > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:32:03 -0400 (AST) From: James Boxall To: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG cc: maphist@geog.uu.nl, Maps-L@listserv.uga.edu Subject: RE: [MapHist] Stockholm and Mulwat placename origin Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Apologies to Francis and the lists.... and yes, go home and have a nice weekend :-) we are looking for etymological origin of Stockholm...we (incl. another ref. dept. here.....checked every source in print and online that we have access to (and the faculty member has searched his sources)...but i just saw the note from the National Library of Sweden....and that may be just what we need. Mulwat (again, egg on face for not being more detailed...).... Middle ages....was, according to the requestor, a meeting place of some sort used for negotiations after battles....it could be an old village or encampment name...or even a hill, valley, or brook.....but it is supposed to be situated along the border in said region...... also...the person in need of Mulwat will be in the UK in a week or so...and would be willing to go anywhere to view anything about it ... cheers, and again, sorry....(hey, its a bad day here, and people are about to hit the picket lines :-(...what can i say? j James Boxall Curator/Head Map and Geospatial Information Collection Killam Library Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada B3H 4H8 902-494-3757 (tel) 902-494-2062 (fax) jcboxall@is.dal.ca magic.library.dal.ca Immediate Past-President, Association of Canadian Map Libraries and Archives (ACMLA) www.acmla.org On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 F.Herbert@RGS.ORG wrote: > Sorry we cannot help, we here are going home! And do you mean > historical/archaeological or etymological origin of Stockholm? Either or > both could be obtained from one of those funny old things called a book > (e.g. paper copy of 'Encyclopedia Britannica' or 'Americana' or > 'Canadiana'). My colleague David McNeill and I have both searched for > "Mulwat" (online and on paper); it doesn't overmuch help would-be > librarians/curators if the context to the question isn't given - is it > Middle Ages, manuscript, etc.? Has anyone enquired of Cumbria County > Archives? There is an English Placenames Society, co Dept of English > Studies (or similar), Univ. of Nottingham (see annual paper 'World of > Learning' for fax etc. if not on internet). > > Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps, RGS-IBG) > f.herbert@rgs.org > http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'] > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: James Boxall [SMTP:jcboxall@is.dal.ca] > > Sent: 01 March 2002 16:52 > > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > > Cc: maps-l > > Subject: [MapHist] Stockholm and Mulwat placename origin > > > > Help! We are about to have a faculty strike action and a couple of > > researchers have asked to find some info before their offices are closed > > (and before they miss deadlines for journals).... > > > > Anyone know the origin of STOCKHOLM ? > > > > and > > > > Anyone know anything about MULWAT? A small place? near the > > border of Scotland just north of Carlisle? > > > > Any help would be appreciated! > > > > > > > > > > James Boxall > > Curator/Head > > Map and Geospatial Information Collection > > Killam Library > > Dalhousie University > > Halifax, Nova Scotia > > Canada B3H 4H8 > > 902-494-3757 (tel) > > 902-494-2062 (fax) > > jcboxall@is.dal.ca > > magic.library.dal.ca > > > > Immediate Past-President, Association of Canadian > > Map Libraries and Archives (ACMLA) www.acmla.org > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2106 Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 13:10:43 +0100 Subject: [MapHist] Italian Atlases From: Vladimiro Valerio To: X-scanner: scanned by Inflex 1.0.9 - (http://pldaniels.com/inflex/) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 LAST CALL: none of the list has ever seen or heard anything about Giuseppe Rodini, Celestino Ricci and Gabinetto Letterario? Thanks Vladimiro >Dear all, >I am woking at the collation of the Atlases by Giuseppe Rodini, Celestino Ricci >and the ones published by the Gabinetto Letterario, all from the XIX century >Neapolitan production. >I am looking for more copies of the atlases to implement my "location" line in >their description. >The titles are: >Giuseppe Rodini (author and engraver), Atlante di Geografia Moderna, Napoli >(various editions between 1839 and 1880, 60x40 cm); >Celestino Ricci (author), Picciolo Atlante ... del Regno di Napoli, Napoli >1813, 18x11 cm; >Atlante universale e portatile di geografia ..., Napoli, Gabinetto Letterario >(various editions between 1813 and 1847, 21x26 cm). >Giuseppe Rodini was also author of a collapsable globe of which I have found no >copy, and also of Geographical texts and spare maps. On this activitites too >news are welcome. >Thanks to all >Vladimiro WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW Vladimiro Valerio Via Raffaello Morghen, 88 I-80129 Napoli phone &fax +39-081-5568952 +39-335-403807 vladimir@unina.it Istituto Universitario di Architettura Dipartimento di Storia della Architettura San Polo 2468 - Palazzo Badoer I-30125 Venezia +39-041-2571458 vladimir@iuav.it WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW PER ASPERA AD ASTRA WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 17:15:33 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] Bronze Age Star Chart? X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id RAA27325 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 This message was refused by majordomo because it was html-encoded. To prevent such a refusal and to be sure your mail will be send to the list without my intervention, you have to send your mail as plain text. Peter. Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 10:23:26 -0500 From: "Duane F. Marble" Subject: Bronze Age Star Chart? From: http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_533690.html Bronze Age 'star chart' found German archaeologists claim to have found a Bronze Age star chart. The bowl is thought to be around 3,600 years old and depicts the sun, the moon, a star formation and a ship. If genuine it suggests astronomy may have been practised hundreds of years earlier than thought. The bronze bowl is 16 inches in diameter and weighs almost 4.5 pounds but is now in the hands of a private collector. It was found, together with a bronze sword and bracelets, by two men in Sangerhausen, Sachsen-Anhalt, according to Germany's Express newspaper. Harald Meller, a local government archaeologist, said: "It shows a journey through the skies. A depiction, that was well known in ancient Egypt, but not thought to be so in central Europe." The finders, who are alleged to have sold the treasure for around £9,000, have been arrested in connection with fencing charges. Since then it has been sold on again - this time to a private collector for £215,000. German laws on the ownership of this kind of discovery are unclear and negotiations are now under way between the collector and office for archaeology in Sachsen-Anhalt. Meller, who is said to be furious that the bowl was sold, said: "If the slab is genuine, it could well be the most important find in European cultural history." -- Dr. Duane F. Marble Professor Emeritus of Geography Telephone: 614-292-4419 Center for Mapping Fax: 614-292-8062 The Ohio State University 1216 Kinnear Email: marble.1@osu.edu Columbus, Ohio 43212 "Two important characteristics of maps should be noticed. A map is not the territory it represents, but, if correct, it has a similar structure to the territory, which accounts for its usefulness. . . . " (pg. 58) - Alfred Korbzybski in Science and Sanity, (1933, 1950) Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 17:22:49 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: List-owner MapHist Subject: [MapHist] MapHist archives available (and digest version not available yet) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id RAA27418 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear all, Our faculty's computer department still hasn't found the time to configurate a digest version for MapHist, so I didn't dare to ask them to find out if an automatic archive is possible. Therefore I make manually an archive and will put monthly files (plain text) on the website. You will find the files for January and February 2002 on http://www.maphist.nl > archives. The older archives are still available from the Harvard server, but will be deleted in the near future. However, there is the MapHist CD-Rom which includes not only all archive files from March 1994 on, but also an edited version of all messages in pdf-format, readable and searchable with Acrobat Reader+Search. For $22 or €25 you can acquire such a CD-Rom, payment instructions etc. on the website mentioned above Peter Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 17:30:36 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] Italian Atlases Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 > >Dear Vladimiro, A quick search on Google.com produced nothing on the first two names you mention, but 92 promising hits on Gabinetto Letterario X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Cc: SanfordBederman@aol.com Subject: [MapHist] Chinese cicumnavigated world before Columbus (today's 'Daily Tele graph') Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:23:52 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 For those who wish to read it Elizabeth Grice's report 'Explorer from China who "beat Columbus to America" ' is the page 4 in this morning's 'The Daily Telegraph' (London); available also as 'China beat Columbus to it' - possibly in shortened form - online [http://www.telegraph.co.uk] (scroll to 'News'). The paper form has pretty coloured extracts of maps of Waldseemueller, Piri re'is (or Piri Reis as his name is again incorrectly presented), Cantino, and Rotz. Please note that the announcement that "Menzies will present his findings at the Royal Geographical Society on March 15 [....]" should not imply that this event is one sponsored by this Society; the premises have been hired for the occasion by the author. Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps, RGS-IBG; past President, Society for the History of Discoveries) f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'] _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" Subject: [MapHist] 'Seeing Through Maps' Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:41:06 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Those who follow the career of Denis Wood may perhaps be interested in the forthcoming title, "Seeing through maps: the power of images to shape our world view", by Ward L Kaiser and Denis Wood.  Part of the blurb (in a message I was sent as part of what appears to be a widespread publicity exercise) reads:-
 
"Maps are powerful shapers of truth about the world. In their new book, SEEING
THROUGH MAPS: The Power of Images to Shape Our World View, authors Ward L.
Kaiser and Denis Wood take a hard look at truth by carefully inspecting the
familiar images we experience every day. In this dynamic new book, the
authors challenge the popular world-view by questioning images in general,
and the specific messages communicated through maps.

 Seeing Through Maps, however, is about so much more than cartography. By
blending graphics and text in a large, landscape format, this book reshapes
the act of seeing. Map projections are used as tools for understanding the
world from different points of view -- those of the world's countries, the
world's cultures, the world's people, and the world's history."
 
And, if you want to read the first, sample chapter, of what appears to be a re-working of the Mercator/Peters arguments, aimed at an educational market, see < www.diversophy.com/maps.htm >.
 
I am merely passing this on, in case it is of interest.
 
*****************************************
Tony Campbell
76 Ockendon Road
London N1 3NW
UK
 
 
Tel: 020 7359 6477  International: +44 20 7359 6477
******************************************
'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject'
http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "J.B. Post" To: , , , Subject: [MapHist] Maps online Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:38:10 -0200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
   As I noted earlier, the Lower Merion Historical Society here in Pennsylvania has mounted fifteen property atlases on its website.  Recently eleven flat maps have been added.  The URLs are
 
 
                        and
 
 
should anyone be interested.
 
         J. B. Post
 
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" Subject: [MapHist] Re: Maps online Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 08:52:04 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
J.B. Post asks if people are interested in the information he recently posted about developments to the website of the Lower Merion Historical Society in Pennsylvania.
 
Well, I certainly am!  It may be a specialised site but it has already been added to the 'United States (states & regions)' section of my 'Images of early maps on the web', under Pennsylvania <  http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/webimages.html >.  That section *alone* numbers, at the moment, 70 entries.  More will appear in the monthly update, to be made later today.
 
Please use the page (and, indeed, the site as a whole), bookmark the relevant pages, and refer other people to those. 
 
*****************************************
Tony Campbell
76 Ockendon Road
London N1 3NW
UK
 
 
Tel: 020 7359 6477  International: +44 20 7359 6477
******************************************
'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject'
http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps
 
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:07:04 -0500 From: Kurt Masters X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: MapHist Subject: [MapHist] British America Lands in New Hampshire Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Greetings, I regards to a quote in the 1888 history of Coos County, NH: "It was first explored by a party of surveyors, under the direction of the Canadian government in 1787, by whom a considerable portion of the territory was divided into townships during the following year, and included a part of of the present municipal corporations of Hereford, Aukland and Emberton, Quebec..." The land south of the highlands eventually became part of New Hampshire, however a few of the land transactions in NH refer to the lots and ranges of these "British America Lands". Can anyone point me to a Lot and Range map of the southeast corner of Aukland/Auckland that would have extended into what is now New Hampshire? Respectfully, Kurt S. Masters _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: krogt@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 09:50:04 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] identifying early map makers Cc: edney@usm.maine.edu Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [Matthew Edney ] Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:01:05 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Matthew Edney Subject: identifying early map makers Dear All: I have a brief question of identification for the list. In reading Robert Morden=92s Geography Rectified (London, 1680), I encountered the following passage (pp. ix-x): For without vanity it may be affirmed, that as compendious as [the book] is, yet you have therein summed up, the Reverend Observations of the Antient Strabo, Pliny and Ptolemy, the choice Rarities of the Nubian Geographer, the unwearied Industry of Mercator and Munster, the Great World of Ortelius and Maginus, the stately Volumes of Bleau and Johnson;= the Modern and Applauded Maps of Du Val and Sanson, the= Quintessence of the Chorographies, Topographies, Relations, Journals and= Travailes of most Authors extant. Most of the geographers cited are easily identified: Strabo, Pliny and= Claudius Ptolemy from Classical Antiquity; the Renaissance/Reformation= scholars Gerardus Mercator, Sebastian M=FCnster, and Abraham Ortelius; the= great Dutch map publishers, Willem Blaeu and Jan Jansz. (Jansson[ius]); and= the French geographers, Pierre Duval and Nicolas Sanson. BUT, who were =93the Nubian Geographer=94 and =93Maginus=94= ??? Please respond to me directly (edney@usm.maine.edu) because I am off the= list while on sabbatical. I will post a synopsis of responses in due= course. [List-owner's comment: I like it more when answers go to the list, putting Matthew's address in the cc field]. Thanks, Matthew Matthew H. Edney Research Fellow, John Carter Brown Library, Brown University,= Providence, RI 02912 Associate Professor of Geography-Anthropology and American & New= England Studies, and Faculty Scholar, Osher Map Library and Smith= Center for Cartographic Education, University of Southern Maine, Portland,= ME 04104-9301 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: krogt@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 09:54:14 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] Map ties Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [The Philadelphia Print Shop ] (I hope this is not too commercial for the list, Peter) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 15:11:17 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: The Philadelphia Print Shop Subject: Map ties We have just found a new series of very attractive silk map ties. These are shown on our site at: http://www.philaprintshop.com/gifts.html#Tie If people like these, there are a few more by this company that we might carry. Chris Lane The Philadelphia Print Shop, Ltd. 8441 Germantown Avenue Philadelphia, PA 19118 (215) 242-4750 (215) 242-6977 [fax] philaprint@philaprintshop.com www.philaprintshop.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: krogt@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 16:43:53 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: Re: [MapHist] identifying early map makers Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 From: "Roderick M. Barron" To: Cc: Subject: Re: [MapHist] identifying early map makers Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:46:04 -0000 Dear Maphisters, In answer to Matthew's question about the sources quoted in Morden's "Geography Rectified"....... the "Nubian geographer" refers to the "Geographia Nubiensis", the work of the 11th Century Arab cartographer, Al-Idrisi (1099-1164), whose work was first translated into French in Paris in 1619 and was used (amongst others) by Nicolas Sanson as one of the sources for his 1654 folio map of Arabia : "Carte des Trois Arabies".... Maginus must I suppose be the late 16th Century Italian cartographer, Giovanni Antonio Magini (1555-1617) Hope this helps Rod ----- Original Message ----- From: "by way of Peter van der Krogt " To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 8:50 AM Subject: [MapHist] identifying early map makers > Non-member submission from [Matthew Edney ] > > Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:01:05 -0500 > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > From: Matthew Edney > Subject: identifying early map makers > > > Dear All: > > I have a brief question of identification for the list. > > In reading Robert Morden=92s Geography Rectified (London, 1680), I > encountered the following passage (pp. ix-x): > For without vanity it may be affirmed, that as compendious as [the book] > is, yet you have therein summed up, the Reverend Observations of the > Antient Strabo, Pliny and Ptolemy, the choice Rarities of the Nubian > Geographer, the unwearied Industry of Mercator and Munster, the Great World > of Ortelius and Maginus, the stately Volumes of Bleau and Johnson;= the > Modern and Applauded Maps of Du Val and Sanson, the= Quintessence of the > Chorographies, Topographies, Relations, Journals and= Travailes of most > Authors extant. > Most of the geographers cited are easily identified: Strabo, Pliny and= > Claudius Ptolemy from Classical Antiquity; the Renaissance/Reformation= > scholars Gerardus Mercator, Sebastian M=FCnster, and Abraham Ortelius; the= > great Dutch map publishers, Willem Blaeu and Jan Jansz. (Jansson[ius]); > and= the French geographers, Pierre Duval and Nicolas Sanson. > > BUT, who were =93the Nubian Geographer=94 and =93Maginus=94= ??? > > Please respond to me directly (edney@usm.maine.edu) because I am off the= > list while on sabbatical. I will post a synopsis of responses in due= course. > > [List-owner's comment: I like it more when answers go to the list, putting > Matthew's address in the cc field]. > > Thanks, > > Matthew > > Matthew H. Edney > > Research Fellow, John Carter Brown Library, Brown University,= Providence, > RI 02912 > > Associate Professor of Geography-Anthropology and American & New= England > Studies, and Faculty Scholar, Osher Map Library and Smith= Center for > Cartographic Education, University of Southern Maine, Portland,= ME 04104-9301 > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:14:04 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [MapHist] identifying early map makers Cc: edney@usm.maine.edu Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
This isn't really an answer, but it is curious that Edgar Allen Poe, in his "Maelstrom", refers to a "...Nubian geographer, Ptolemy Hephestion...", making one wonder about the source of the phrasing, although not likely linking to anything Morden would have discussed. As to possibilities, one might be Leo Africanus: <http://www.leoafricanus.com/leo/Leo10_Biography.html>. I gather his Cosmographia Del' Africa was published in 1550 by Ramusio, in his Primo volume delle navigationi et viaggi. It would seem possible that Maginus is just the Latinization of Magini (Maginus is the name of a crater on the moon, named for Magini: <http://www.physics.ucf.edu/cfas/articles/fantastic_areas.html>.

       Joel Kovarsky





At 09:50 AM 3/6/02 +0100, you wrote:
Non-member submission from [Matthew Edney <edney@usm.maine.edu>]

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:01:05 -0500
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: Matthew Edney <edney@usm.maine.edu>
Subject: identifying early map makers


Dear All:

I have a brief question of identification for the list.

 the choice Rarities of the Nubian Geographer,

BUT, who were =93the Nubian Geographer=94 and =93Maginus=94= ???

[List-owner's comment: I like it more when answers go to the list, putting Matthew's address in the cc field].

Thanks,

Matthew

Matthew H. Edney
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:36:48 -0700 (MST) From: LOZOVSKY NATALIA To: "by way of Peter van der Krogt " cc: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Re: Byzantine geography Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear All, When I looked for something in English to assign students on early Byzantine geography, I was not able to find much. So I'd appreciate any suggestions. Also, this makes me wonder: is there anybody currently working on any aspects of Byzantine geography, not necessarily in English? Best regards, Natalia Lozovsky _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:29:30 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: List-owner MapHist Subject: Re: [MapHist] Re: Byzantine geography Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Natalia, Please send messages for maphist ONLY to maphist@geog.uu.nl The headers of your message are: From: LOZOVSKY NATALIA To: "by way of Peter van der Krogt " cc: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Re: Byzantine geography Thus you sent the message to owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (that's me) and cc to maphist@geog.uu.nl , the correct list address. Peter At 17:36 6-3-2002, you wrote: >Dear All, > >When I looked for something in English to assign students on early >Byzantine geography, I was not able to find much. So I'd appreciate any >suggestions. Also, this makes me wonder: is there anybody currently >working on any aspects of Byzantine geography, not necessarily in English? > >Best regards, > >Natalia Lozovsky > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht >List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl >List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 15:18:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: web3.po.com: www set sender to mcguirk1492@pol.net using -f From: Donald Mcguirk To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] identifying early map makers Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Although almost a century later, the western orientalist Glas uses this term in 1764 to identify IDRISI. Unrelated, but interestingly, Edgar Allan Poe also has a Nubian geographer (Ptolemy Hephestion) in a number of his writings. Don ------------------ Reply Separator -------------------- Originally From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] identifying early map makers Date: 03/06/2002 09:50am Non-member submission from [Matthew Edney ] Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:01:05 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Matthew Edney Subject: identifying early map makers Dear All: I have a brief question of identification for the list. In reading Robert Morden=92s Geography Rectified (London, 1680), I encountered the following passage (pp. ix-x): For without vanity it may be affirmed, that as compendious as [the book] is, yet you have therein summed up, the Reverend Observations of the Antient Strabo, Pliny and Ptolemy, the choice Rarities of the Nubian Geographer, the unwearied Industry of Mercator and Munster, the Great World of Ortelius and Maginus, the stately Volumes of Bleau and Johnson;= the Modern and Applauded Maps of Du Val and Sanson, the= Quintessence of the Chorographies, Topographies, Relations, Journals and= Travailes of most Authors extant. Most of the geographers cited are easily identified: Strabo, Pliny and= Claudius Ptolemy from Classical Antiquity; the Renaissance/Reformation= scholars Gerardus Mercator, Sebastian M=FCnster, and Abraham Ortelius; the= great Dutch map publishers, Willem Blaeu and Jan Jansz. (Jansson [ius]); and= the French geographers, Pierre Duval and Nicolas Sanson. BUT, who were =93the Nubian Geographer=94 and =93Maginus=94= ??? Please respond to me directly (edney@usm.maine.edu) because I am off the= list while on sabbatical. I will post a synopsis of responses in due= course. [List-owner's comment: I like it more when answers go to the list, putting Matthew's address in the cc field]. Thanks, Matthew Matthew H. Edney Research Fellow, John Carter Brown Library, Brown University,= Providence, RI 02912 Associate Professor of Geography-Anthropology and American & New= England Studies, and Faculty Scholar, Osher Map Library and Smith= Center for Cartographic Education, University of Southern Maine, Portland,= ME 04104-9301 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 21:30:24 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] maps on silk Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["Waldo Tobler" ] From: "Waldo Tobler" To: Subject: maps on silk Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:46:35 -0800 The latest catalog from DeutscheOptik in san Diego, Calif.,(www.deutscheoptik.com 1-800-225-9407) has available assorted "allied aviator's escape maps" I have no affiliation with this firm, but know that there are occasional requests for these maps. Not cheap $50/each, $300 for ten. Waldo Tobler Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 17:58:44 -0600 From: Paul Purman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Re: Byzantine geography Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Natalia,

A question I have myself wondered, as a personal interest.

The only Byzantine studies I undertook in formal education were as an undergraduate.  At that time (80s), a history
professor assigned several older readings: Ostrogorsky's "The Byzantine Empire in the World of the Seventh Century" and  "Byzantine Cities in the Early Middle Ages" (not from History of the Byzantine State), and John Teall's " The Grain Supply of the Byzantine Empire", all geographical, depending on what kind of geography you're interested in. Unfortunately all I have is the photocopies...I expect they came from a journal, but which?

I'd suggest checking out the Dumbarton Oaks website, which has their research library searchable:  http://www.ils.doaks.org/

Let me know what you find out!

--
Regards,

Paul Purman
Freelance writer & Geographer
ppurman@minn.net

List-owner MapHist wrote:

Natalia,

Please send messages for maphist ONLY to maphist@geog.uu.nl

The headers of your message are:

From: LOZOVSKY NATALIA <lozovsky@UCSU.COLORADO.EDU>
To: "by way of Peter van der Krogt <p.vanderkrogt@geog.uu.nl>"
<owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl>
cc: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Re: Byzantine geography

Thus you sent the message to owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (that's me) and cc to
maphist@geog.uu.nl , the correct list address.

Peter

At 17:36 6-3-2002, you wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>When I looked for something in English to assign students on early
>Byzantine geography, I was not able to find much. So I'd appreciate any
>suggestions. Also, this makes me wonder: is there anybody currently
>working on any aspects of Byzantine geography, not necessarily in English?
>
>Best regards,
>
>Natalia Lozovsky
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht
>List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl
>List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl
>List Information: http://www.maphist.nl

Peter van der Krogt
List-owner MapHist

List-info: http://www.maphist.nl

_______________________________________________________________
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht
List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl


  X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: krogt@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:12:05 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: Re: [MapHist] maps on silk Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Not distributed automatically since the message had an attachment (maps.vcf - thre vcard for Bill Stanley). P.S. from 8-15 March I am on vacation and I can't redirect bounced messages like this and messages from non-subscribed addresses to the list - Peter. Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 23:07:55 -0500 From: Bill Stanley Reply-To: maps@erols.com Organization: Cartographic Associates, LLC To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] maps on silk You may wish to review the silk maps from Cartographic Associates [Historical Maps Section] www.maps-charts.com they are priced somewhat less. WWII Japanese topo map is also available. "by way of List-owner MapHist " wrote: > Non-member submission from ["Waldo Tobler" ] > > From: "Waldo Tobler" > To: > Subject: maps on silk > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:46:35 -0800 > > The latest catalog from DeutscheOptik in san Diego, > Calif.,(www.deutscheoptik.com 1-800-225-9407) > has available assorted "allied aviator's escape maps" > I have no affiliation with this firm, but know that there are occasional > requests for these maps. > Not cheap $50/each, $300 for ten. > Waldo Tobler > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 15:50:54 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] Silk Maps Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Not distributed automatically since the message had an attachment. N.B. Users of Outlook switch the automatic business card off. (under Tools > Options > Compose). These business cards are sent as attachments and are thus refused by the majordomo. - Peter Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 09:45:59 -0500 From: Bill Stanley Reply-To: maps@erols.com Organization: Cartographic Associates, LLC Subject: Silk Maps Content-Type: multipart/mixed; As a follow-up to the availability of the "silk maps", as they are known, from the Cold War and WWII; there is a large number listed at www.maps-charts.com , reasonably priced. Also, under the "Historical Map Section" is an Imperial Japanese Army field map from WWII of the Philippines. Regards, Wm. Stanley Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:45:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: web1.po.com: www set sender to mcguirk1492@pol.net using -f From: Donald Mcguirk To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] identifying early map makers Cc: edney@usm.maine.edu Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Maginus is probably Geovanni Antonio Magini (Maginus), professor of Ad Mathematicum (Astronomy) at Bologna, 1588-1617. Noted as "a well known Cartographer". Beat out a young, less well known astromomer, "Galilei" for the position. Also sited in Sir Thomas Browne in "Pseudodoxia Epidemica" VI: viii (1646; 6th editon 1672). Don ------------------ Reply Separator -------------------- Originally From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] identifying early map makers Date: 03/06/2002 09:50am Non-member submission from [Matthew Edney ] Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:01:05 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Matthew Edney Subject: identifying early map makers Dear All: I have a brief question of identification for the list. In reading Robert Morden=92s Geography Rectified (London, 1680), I encountered the following passage (pp. ix-x): For without vanity it may be affirmed, that as compendious as [the book] is, yet you have therein summed up, the Reverend Observations of the Antient Strabo, Pliny and Ptolemy, the choice Rarities of the Nubian Geographer, the unwearied Industry of Mercator and Munster, the Great World of Ortelius and Maginus, the stately Volumes of Bleau and Johnson;= the Modern and Applauded Maps of Du Val and Sanson, the= Quintessence of the Chorographies, Topographies, Relations, Journals and= Travailes of most Authors extant. Most of the geographers cited are easily identified: Strabo, Pliny and= Claudius Ptolemy from Classical Antiquity; the Renaissance/Reformation= scholars Gerardus Mercator, Sebastian M=FCnster, and Abraham Ortelius; the= great Dutch map publishers, Willem Blaeu and Jan Jansz. (Jansson [ius]); and= the French geographers, Pierre Duval and Nicolas Sanson. BUT, who were =93the Nubian Geographer=94 and =93Maginus=94= ??? Please respond to me directly (edney@usm.maine.edu) because I am off the= list while on sabbatical. I will post a synopsis of responses in due= course. [List-owner's comment: I like it more when answers go to the list, putting Matthew's address in the cc field]. Thanks, Matthew Matthew H. Edney Research Fellow, John Carter Brown Library, Brown University,= Providence, RI 02912 Associate Professor of Geography-Anthropology and American & New= England Studies, and Faculty Scholar, Osher Map Library and Smith= Center for Cartographic Education, University of Southern Maine, Portland,= ME 04104-9301 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Mike Zaun" To: "Map History" , "Map Trade" Subject: [MapHist] Hats off to David Rumsey Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:15:39 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Fantastic Article on Wired News today! http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,50785,00.html Michael Zaun Director of Internet Operations Art Source International Inc. 1237 Pearl Street Boulder, Colorado 80302 Phone 303.444.4079 FAX 303.444.4298 http://www.mapsandprints.com Email: INFO@MAPSANDPRINTS.COM Buy them a unique antique gift they will appreciate for years. --Over 9,000 Maps Online with Pictures/Descriptions --Map Tracker!! Map Tracker!! Map Tracker!! --Join our newsletter --Enter our monthly contest --Download our FREE antique map screen savers --Illuminated Manuscripts --Selected globes are 15% +FREE Shipping! --View our NEW Rare Maps section --Collectors Guide --Live Camera --Framed and Rare Maps _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "J.B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Map ties Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:51:54 -0200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
   Does anyone know if there are clip-on ties with map designs on them?  Museum & gallery security guards usually wear clip-on ties (presumably so they can't be choked by real neckties if they wore them) and these are generally pretty bland.  Maybe security guards should be bland, but clip-on ties with maps, manuscripts, art works, etc. as designs would make things less bland.
 
       J. B. Post
 
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: "*Maps-L" , "*MapHist" , "*Liber-GdC" Subject: [MapHist] Non-English references in the HoC Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 15:12:08 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
                   [posted to the MapHist, Maps-L and LIBER GdeC lists]
 
 
A few weeks ago there was a discussion on MapHist about the need for better listings of works in the History of Cartography, in languages other than English.  This was in the context of Evelyn Edson's "Bibliographic Essay", which I mounted on the 'Map History' site < http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/edson.html  >.
If you look at that page you will see that an explanatory note has now been added.
 
Several people made suggestions about non-English references but, as far as I know, only one person took any action.  Markus Oehrli sent me a long list of German-language references.  These have now been included in the February update to my 'Web Articles' page < http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/webtexts.html >.  Most are listed under 'Europe: Switzerland', and I have used the opportunity to thank Markus publicly there.
 
What about other countries and languanges?   My listing of web-mounted texts in our subject [the only one of its kind and now totalling several hundred links] will inevitably have an English-language bias unless people send me details of relevant pages in *other* languages.  I am sure that Jürg Bühler would also like the information for his bibliographical listings, arranged by language < http://www.maps.ethz.ch/gdc-education2.html >.
 
Please reply to me OFFLIST.  Thank you.
 
Tony Campbell
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:27:35 -0600 From: Jill & John X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD475 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Silk Maps Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Who is that is looking for "Silk Maps"? As a collector and research I have a number of surplus sheets. I can provide a better selection (WWII through Vietnam) and a better price. See my website for information: http://www.silkmaps.com John Rado "by way of List-owner MapHist " wrote: > Not distributed automatically since the message had an attachment. > > N.B. Users of Outlook switch the automatic business card off. (under > Tools > Options > Compose). These business cards are sent as attachments > and are thus refused by the majordomo. - Peter > > Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 09:45:59 -0500 > From: Bill Stanley > Reply-To: maps@erols.com > Organization: Cartographic Associates, LLC > Subject: Silk Maps > Content-Type: multipart/mixed; > > As a follow-up to the availability of the "silk > maps", as they are known, from the Cold War and > WWII; there is a large number listed at > www.maps-charts.com , reasonably priced. Also, > under the "Historical Map Section" is an Imperial > Japanese Army field map from WWII of the > Philippines. > > Regards, > > Wm. Stanley > > Peter van der Krogt > List-owner MapHist > > List-info: http://www.maphist.nl > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: ahudson@NYPL.ORG Subject: [MapHist] map librarianship course To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, maps-l@listserv.uga.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 10:49:09 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 03/09/2002 10:49:41 AM X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id RAA14833 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Research Methods and Resources for Students and Practitioners: A Partnership of The New York Public Library Research Libraries and Pratt SILS Three intensive learning experiences from May 20 through June 29, 2001 Beginning in Summer 2002, Pratt's School of Library and Information Science (SILS) will offer a suite of institutes based on the collections of the Humanities and Social Sciences Library of The New York Public Library. This Summer, the Program features the Institute on Special Collections, offered for its fourth year, followed by two new institutes working with the Library's Art and Map collections. NYPL's Digital Library initiatives will also be featured in each course. The Staff of each of the Library's divisions will form the core of the faculty. Thus, the experiences will be doubly rewarding for students who will be exposed to the expert knowledge of curators, as well as to collections that are among the finest in the world. The Institute on Special Collections will be offered May 20-31, the Art Institute, from June 3-14 and the Map Institute from June 17 through 29. Each institute will be limited to 15 participants. These institutes are ideal for practitioners who want to expand career opportunities by gaining an in-depth knowledge of highly specialized collections. For students pursuing a master's degree in any accredited school, these courses provide great opportunities to learn and practice research skills. Each institute is a three-credit graduate level course, and will be coordinated by Pratt's School of Information and Library Science. Plans are to expand the institutes in future summers to cover topics such as the book arts/history of printing, conservation and preservation, manuscripts and archives. Anne Woodsworth, Dean of the School of Information and Library Science at Pratt said "The faculty at SILS are truly excited about this partnership since it stretches us to embrace experts in the field as true partners in the teaching process. Needless to say, having access to NYPL's wonderful collections and librarians is a gift that we would be foolish to deny our students." The Director of NYPL's Humanities and Social Sciences Library, Rodney Phillips, adds "This initiative is very important for us in the Humanities and Social Sciences Library, as we endeavor to become a more integral part of the educational process. What partner could be more important than our own professional educational institutions? Our librarians and curators look forward to working with Pratt." For further information contact Dr. Anne Woodsworth at 718-636-3710 or e-mail awoodswo@pratt.edu Needless to say, no one I know or will ever see again, is allowed to take this course!! ACH Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: ahudson@NYPL.ORG Subject: [MapHist] re map librarianship course To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, maps-l@listserv.uga.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 13:19:02 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 03/09/2002 01:19:34 PM Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Just kidding folks, [in case you actually got to the bottom line] you are all most welcome to take the map course. In case you want more information, please contact Dean Woodsworth at the number listed. When I checked on March 5th, there was nothing on Pratt's website, but keep checking... http://www.pratt.edu/sils/index.html The syllabus, including guest speakers and field trips, is still a work in progress, so it will not be posted until May probably. Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 20:06:33 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [MapHist] identifying early map makers Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Regarding Al-Idrisi, see: <http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/219mono.html>
Included at this site is the statement:

"...and the authoritative geographical knowledge of the Western world was destined to develop unenriched by the treasures which Roger and Idrisi together had amassed. The first translation known of Idrisi's work was published in Rome only in 1619, and then in a very much shortened form (the translator did not even known the author's name). While in the world maps of Marino Sanudo and Pietro Vesconte we find Idrisi's influence very apparent here and there (Slide #228), and although his record of the Deceived Men of Lisbon and their explorations in the Western Ocean may have had a certain effect in stimulating the later Atlantic enterprises of Christian mariners, the Geography of Idrisi never seems to have become a European textbook."


     Joel Kovarsky
    

At 04:43 PM 3/6/02 +0100, you wrote:
the "Nubian geographer" refers to the "Geographia Nubiensis", the work of
the 11th Century Arab cartographer, Al-Idrisi (1099-1164), whose work was
first translated into French in Paris in 1619 and was used (amongst others)
by Nicolas Sanson as one of the sources for his 1654 folio map of Arabia :
"Carte des Trois Arabies"....
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "henk van der heijden" To: Subject: [MapHist] VII Provinces Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:57:06 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 To All of you Who can tell me the whereabouts of the following map : CARTE ANCIENNE | DES PAYS | compris a present sous le nom de Provinces Unies Ecrit par Herault H.A.M. van der Heijden Lange Reen 2 5524 AJ Steensel (NL) 0497- 514637 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-WebMail-UserID: kpinto Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:11:12 -0700 Sender: kpinto From: kpinto To: Peter van der Krogt X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00003228 Subject: FWD: RE: [MapHist] identifying early map makers X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61.08 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Peter, I sent this message to maphist but it seems not to have gone through. Did I use the wrong address? thanks, Karen >===== Original Message From K Pinto ===== It would not be wise to rely upon the information on this website--at least not for Islamic mapping. A great deal of the information is out of date and confused. The author has thrown together a hodge podge of images from different manuscripts often with seriously incorrect dates. For instance, he dates the famous world map from the Leiden ms. (see HoC 2.1, plate 7) as 977/1570 A.D. This is an atrocious mistake. The ms. is generally dated to 569 A.H. (after Hijra--i.e. the Muslim calendar)/ 1173 A.D. (I have redated this to 1193 A.D.) In other words the date given on this website for this map is approx. four centuries off! I puzzled over this for a while and decided that the author of the website somehow got Ibn Hawqal confused for al-Istakhri. Thus he took Ibn Hawqal's death date of ca. 367 A.H./ 977 A.D. and attached it to the Leiden map. He further misunderstood the date by taking the already converted Christian calendar date and reconverted it! Hence arriving at the completely false date of 1570! Quite amazing. Other mistakes among numerous others include the citing of al-Kashgari as an Arab when in fact he was Turkish. I teach my students not to rely completely on web based material. At least not yet. In general I find that web based content can be quite misleading unless the page is put up by a reliable source. If someone needs reasonably up-to-date, accurate info. on Islamic mapping, HoC 2.1 is still the source to go to. Approach this site with extreme caution! Sincerely, Karen Pinto On Sat, 9 Mar 2002, Joel Kovarsky wrote: > Regarding Al-Idrisi, see: > > Included at this site is the statement: > > "...and the authoritative geographical knowledge of the Western world was > destined to develop unenriched by the treasures which Roger and Idrisi > together had amassed. The first translation known of Idrisi's work was > published in Rome only in 1619, and then in a very much shortened form (the > translator did not even known the author's name). While in the world maps > of Marino Sanudo and Pietro Vesconte we find Idrisi's influence very > apparent here and there (Slide #228), and although his record of the > Deceived Men of Lisbon and their explorations in the Western Ocean may have > had a certain effect in stimulating the later Atlantic enterprises of > Christian mariners, the Geography of Idrisi never seems to have become a > European textbook." > > > Joel Kovarsky > > > At 04:43 PM 3/6/02 +0100, you wrote: > >the "Nubian geographer" refers to the "Geographia Nubiensis", the work of > >the 11th Century Arab cartographer, Al-Idrisi (1099-1164), whose work was > >first translated into French in Paris in 1619 and was used (amongst others) > >by Nicolas Sanson as one of the sources for his 1654 folio map of Arabia : > >"Carte des Trois Arabies".... > Karen Pinto, Ph.D. SSHRC Postdoctoral Fellow Dept. of History and Classics University of Alberta, Edmonton X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.1 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:32:02 +0100 From: "Theodor Bauer" To: Subject: Antw: [MapHist] VII Provinces Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear H.A.M. van der Heijden, probably this entry from BVB-KAT (Bavarian union catalogue) helps: Carte Ancienne Des Pays Compris `a pr esent sous les noms De Provinces-Unies De Pays-Bas Autrichiens / Grav e par P. F. Tardieu. Ecrit par Herault . - [Ca. 1:1 100 000] [Paris] : [Edme Mentelle], [Ca. 1780]. - 1 Kt. : Kupferstich ; 30 x 41 cm Maßstab in graph. Form (Mille Romaine, Lieues communes). - Titel oben links. - Nullmeridian: Paris u. Ferro Sheet no. 60/61 in: Mentelle, Edme: Atlas Nouveau Paris: Mentelle, ca. 1780. 140 sheet : only maps This edition in the University library of Eichstätt / Bavaria Call number 197/112.8 Yours Theo Bauer _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:22:00 -0500 From: "Duane F. Marble" Organization: OSU Center for Mapping X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf To: maphist Subject: [MapHist] Forwarded Query Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The following was distributed on the SEA-GIS list: From: Mira Miletic [mailto:mmiletic@nsk.hr] Sent: 11 March 2002 12:31 To: libergdc-dg@bravo.nls.uk Subject: Fw: Fw. Isolarii Dubrovnik Museums Maritime museum Dubrovnik Croatia The Maritime Museum of Dubrovnik decided to collect documentation, the photocopies or photographs of the Isolarii from 16th and the beginning of 17th century which contain the copperplate engravings with maps and views from the Croatian Eastern Adriatic coast (that Isolarii usually review the geographical charts and views of towns from Venice to Constantinopoli across the Eastern Adriatic coast, Albanian coast and the Greek islands). We intend to write an article about them. According to the bibliography (R. Almagia, F. Borroni Salvadori, R. Gallo, F. Bachman) we know for the isolario "Civitatum aliquot insignor(um) et locor(um), magis munitor, exacta delineatio: Cum additione aliquot Insularum principalium, Disegni di alcune piu illustri citta et fortezze del mondo con aggiunta di alcune Isole principali, Venetiis MDLXLVII (1568) Fernando Bertelli formis". In this addition of Isolar, according to F. Bachmann, Die Alten stadtebilder, Stuttgart, 1965, the Fernando Bertelli´s Isloario consists of print views and maps of eastern Adriatic coastal cities: Clissa, Dulcigno, Durazzo, ragusa, Scardona, Sebenico, Spalato, Trau, Zara (as well as maps of the Greak coast and islands). We have to point out that the Fernando Bertelli`s Isolar edition from 1568. differs from the adition of Donato Bertelli`s Isolar which was published under the same title in 1574. (Biblioteca Marciana posseses the sample of this Isolar) The same F. Bachmann also mentions the Isolario: Domenico Zenoi, Civitatum aliquot insignorum et locorum munimentorum delineato. Venetiis 1573. with the copperplate engravings of the following places: Cattaro, Dulcigno, Durazzo, Ragusa, Scutari, Sebenico, Zara. We also try to find the addition of the book Relation Journaliere du voyage du Levant faict et descript par Haut et puissant Seigneur Henry de Beauvau... Nancy 1615. We have to point also (according to the bibliography) that the older addition of the book from 1608. had not the copper engravings, but the addition from 1615. have some from the Eastern Adriatic coast. If you are in possesion of these three books, and if they contain the maps and views mentioned above, we would kindly request you to inform us about the price and the mode of payment for the copies. If you do not have the samples, would you be so kind to give us advice which Library could have it. If this e mail reaches the wrong department of your Library would you please procede it to the right one. Yours sincerely, Anica Kisiæ, Mr.sc. -- Dr. Duane F. Marble Professor Emeritus of Geography Telephone: 614-292-4419 Center for Mapping Fax: 614-292-8062 The Ohio State University 1216 Kinnear Email: marble.1@osu.edu Columbus, Ohio 43212 "Two important characteristics of maps should be noticed. A map is not the territory it represents, but, if correct, it has a similar structure to the territory, which accounts for its usefulness. . . . " (pg. 58) - Alfred Korbzybski in Science and Sanity, (1933, 1950) _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Harold Cramer" To: Subject: [MapHist] Philadelphia Meridian Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:48:18 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Hello: The Philadelphia Meridian appears on many old US maps. What was the precise defining location for this meridian? My guess is the intersection of Broad and Market streets. Also, what was the precise defining location for the Washington meridian? My guess there is the capitol. Yours truly, Harold Cramer _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Markus.Oehrli@LT.ADMIN.CH To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: AW: [MapHist] Philadelphia Meridian Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:47:11 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id QAA26761 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 > http://www.kb.nl/kb/resources/frameset_kb.html?/kb/skd/skd/mathemat.html scroll down to 'LOCATION OF PRIME MERIDIANS' (found via Tony Campbell's marvellous gateway site under http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/topics.html) Regards Markus ****************************************************************** Bundesamt für Landestopographie - Swiss Federal Office of Topography Thematische Kartografie - Thematic Cartography Seftigenstrasse 264 Postfach CH-3084 Wabern ********************************************** Tel: ++41-31 963 24 64 (CH: 031 963 24 64) Fax: ++41-31 963 24 59 (CH: 031 963 24 59) E-Mail: Web: ****************************************************************** > ---------- > From: Harold Cramer > Reply To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 15:48 PM > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: [MapHist] Philadelphia Meridian > > Hello: > > The Philadelphia Meridian appears on many old US maps. What was the > precise > defining location for this meridian? My guess is the intersection of Broad > and Market streets. > > Also, what was the precise defining location for the Washington meridian? > My > guess there is the capitol. > > Yours truly, > Harold Cramer > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Marcel van den Broecke" To: Subject: [MapHist] change of URL Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:17:08 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Maphisters, Please note that I can no longer be reached at www.ortelius-antiquemaps.com but only at www.orteliusmaps.com My old Email cart.neer@tip.nl is still functional, but please use info@orteliusmaps.com Thank you. Marcel and Deborah van den Broecke Cartographica Neerlandica tel. +31 30 2202 396 fax +31 30 2203 326 e-mail: info@orteliusmaps.com URL: www.orteliusmaps.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: ahudson@NYPL.ORG Subject: [MapHist] re: map librarianship course To: maps-l@listserv.uga.edu, maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:56:51 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 03/11/2002 04:57:24 PM Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 fyi, mapfolk, just received this info re costs, as established by Pratt Institute: You can direct people to the general office number 718-636-3702 or 718-636-3710. They can ask for either me, Vinette Thomas, or my Assistant, Alexandra Nader (636-3656) . For your information, tuition is $637 per credit with each course being three credits. Registration for non-Pratt students will be via a visiting/special student application form which they can request to be mailed or faxed to them. I will have a copy faxed to you also. Registration begins April 5 for summer courses. Hope this helps. Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 19:22:15 EST Subject: [MapHist] Map collecting - a hobby or an investment? To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 256 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Maphisters,

On March 27, 2002 Christie's in New York will auction off the original manuscript map of the Mason-Dixon survey. It is included as Lot No. 4 in the FORBES COLLECTION OF AMERICAN DOCUMENTS, Sale No. 1032. The estimate is $800K - $1.2M. The manuscript map is entitled 'A Plan of the West Line or Parallel of Latitude which is the Boundary between the Provinces of Maryland and Pensylvania,' and it is signed by the surveyors 'Cha: Mason' and 'Jere: Dixon' in ink below the decorative cartouche, [drawn in Philadelphia, 26 December 1767-29 February 1768]. You can see a picture of this map and the complete (very detailed; excellent reference!) catalogue description (prepared by Chris Coover, Christie's Senior Specialist) at the URL provided here at end.

I need not elaborate on the importance of this map, so tightly entwined with the Penns of Pennsylvania, the Baltimores of Maryland and the history of the American Civil War. As Coover writes:

THIS IS THE ORIGINAL 1768 MASON-DIXON MANUSCRIPT SURVEY, ESTABLISHING A BOUNDARY WHICH BECAME THE HISTORIC MASON-DIXON LINE: 'A SYMBOL DIFFERENTIATING TWO POLITICAL DIVISIONS, TWO DEFINITE STATES OF MIND WHICH HAVE EXISTED IN THE NATION FROM THE BEGINNING OF ITS SETTLEMENT' (WROTH)

The question I would like to bring up here is:

ARE ANTIQUE MAPS A GOOD FINANCIAL INVESTMENT?

You may recall that about a year ago that topic was discussed in this forum, with the map dealers arguing that antique maps are good 'investments' and me and a few other map collectors arguing the opposite - that antique maps are lousy 'financial investments' and that map collecting should be treated as a hobby and not an investment (financial, that is).

In 2 weeks, with the Mason-Dixon map having sold, we will have a chance to get some empirical data to support one side or the other. Yet already at this point, as it relates to the Mason-Dixon map, it appears that ANTIQUE MAPS ARE LOUSY FINANCIAL INVESTMENTS!

Malcolm Forbes, the shrewd New Jerseyian of Scottish heritage, proprietor of the FORBES magazine, defender of capitalism and America, bought this map almost exactly 20 years ago as lot No. 23 in the April 1, 1982 Christie's (Christie, Manson & Woods International) sale No. 5131 in New York - for $396,000 ($360,000 + 10% Premium). [Catalogue of that sale, which lists and describes other Mason-Dixon maps, is a must in a serious map collector's reference library. 25 items only, including a copy of the first printing of the Declaration of Independence, pull-out folding map, hard-bound.]

If the Forbes family, who is now selling the map, pays no Seller's Premium to Christie's (a likely situation, but just a guess - considering that the total value of the sale runs into the tens of millions) then even if the map is sold at the HIGH ESTIMATE of $1.2M the annualized financial return will amount to only about 5.70% per year over the past 20 years!!! If the map sells at the LOW ESTIMATE of $800K then this dubious 'investment' will return only about $3.58% per year over the last 20 years!!!

Yet, if Malcolm Forbes put his $396,000 into a super-safe, no headaches, 7-year US T-Note auctioned off by the government on March 31, 1982 (*i*) - the day prior to his purchase of the Mason-Dixon map - then already by April 1989 his nest-egg would have grown to over $1 million - about $1,016,737 to be more exact.

If then he would roll over his money into another 7-year US T-Note auctioned off by the government on April 12, 1989 (*ii*) - by April 1996 his nest-egg would have grown to just under $2 million - about $1,905,689 to be more precise.

If then he would roll over his money into another super-safe 5-year US T-Note auctioned off by the government on April 24, 1996 - then by April 2001 (ALREADY A YEAR AGO!) the total accumulation would have been about $2.5 million - or more specifically $2,580,458. (Thank God someone invented PCs and spreadsheets for all these arcane computations!!! And, yes, taxes (not accounted for) would decrease these numbers).

But US T-Notes are safe low-yielding investments suitable for widows and orphans, and an unlikely choice for entrepreneurs like Malcolm Forbes. I am sure he (or any Joe or Jane off the street) could have done better in the last 20 years than investing in boring government bonds!

Yet, I am willing to bet (a bottle of beer?) that the Mason-Dixon map will not realize the $2.5-3 million necessary for it to be equivalent to an investment in US Treasury Notes over the last 20 years. And what other example would be better if anyone wants to talk about maps as investments - the Mason-Dixon manuscript map is it, there is no higher caliber map collecting material.

So what do YOU think - should you buy antique maps for 'investment' or BUY THEM FOR FUN?

Mark Babinski
map collector, not map investor

*i* - 7-Year Note auctioned by the Treasury on 3-31-82: annual yield of 14.42%; annual interest rate of 14.375%

*ii* - 7-Year Note auctioned by the Treasury on 4-12-89: annual yield of 9.39%; annual interest rate of 9.375%

*iii* - 5-Year Note auctioned by the Gov. on 4-24-96: annual yield of 6.28%; annual interest rate of 6.25%

MASON-DIXON map URL:

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LOTDETAIL.ASP?sid=&intObjectID=3886727

++++++++++++++++++++
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 19:54:12 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Lester Subject: Re: [MapHist] Map collecting - a hobby or an investment? To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I consider maps an excellent investment compared to stocks, well, at least compared to the stocks I pick (hence my other moniker "stocksinker"). A hobby? I thought it was just an addiction! Jay L. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Markus.Oehrli@LT.ADMIN.CH To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] CD-ROM on old Swiss maps: marketing survey Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:41:03 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id LAA06054 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Maphist colleagues Introduction The Swiss Federal Office of Topography http://www.swisstopo.ch would like to carry out a marketing survey in the scope of a new CD-ROM product with the topic 'old national maps of Switzerland'. In order to be able to meet the needs and requirements of map libraries, teachers, scholars and so on even better in the future, we would like to ask you to fill in a questionnaire. All those interested to do so are kindly requested to e-mail markus.oehrli@lt.admin.ch. The questionnaire is available in English and in German and will be sent to interested people as Word-formatted document (40 KB). Background information The new CD-ROM will include the following topics and functions (depending on the answers of this marketing survey of course): * Information concerning the origins, production and development of old Swiss maps * Historic development up to current official maps * Information for research and educational purposes, or just as references * Cross-fading different map editions to visualize the changes in the landscape * Interactive applications (measuring distances, placename search, etc.) * Possibilities for composing individual sheets and extracts * Printing map extracts * A list of links to http://www.swisstopo.ch concerning other interesting topics Thank you for your cooperation and interest in our products. On behalf of Swiss Federal Office of Topography Markus Oehrli ****************************************************************** Bundesamt für Landestopographie - Swiss Federal Office of Topography Thematische Kartografie - Thematic Cartography Seftigenstrasse 264 Postfach CH-3084 Wabern ********************************************** Tel: ++41-31 963 24 64 (CH: 031 963 24 64) Fax: ++41-31 963 24 59 (CH: 031 963 24 59) E-Mail: Web: ****************************************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:16:27 +0100 Subject: Re: [MapHist] CD-ROM on old Swiss maps: marketing survey From: Vladimiro Valerio To: X-scanner: scanned by Inflex 1.0.9 - (http://pldaniels.com/inflex/) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id BAA26903 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Il giorno 12-03-2002 11:41, Markus.Oehrli@LT.ADMIN.CH, Markus.Oehrli@LT.ADMIN.CH ha scritto: > Dear Maphist colleagues > > > Introduction > The Swiss Federal Office of Topography http://www.swisstopo.ch would like to > carry out a marketing survey in the scope of a new CD-ROM product with the > topic 'old national maps of Switzerland'. > > In order to be able to meet the needs and requirements of map libraries, > teachers, scholars and so on even better in the future, we would like to ask > you to fill in a questionnaire. All those interested to do so are kindly > requested to e-mail markus.oehrli@lt.admin.ch. The questionnaire is > available in English and in German and will be sent to interested people as > Word-formatted document (40 KB). > > > Background information > The new CD-ROM will include the following topics and functions (depending on > the answers of this marketing survey of course): > > * Information concerning the origins, production and development of > old Swiss maps > * Historic development up to current official maps > * Information for research and educational purposes, or just as > references > * Cross-fading different map editions to visualize the changes in the > landscape > * Interactive applications (measuring distances, placename search, > etc.) > * Possibilities for composing individual sheets and extracts > * Printing map extracts > * A list of links to http://www.swisstopo.ch concerning other > interesting topics > > Thank you for your cooperation and interest in our products. > > > On behalf of > Swiss Federal Office of Topography > > Markus Oehrli > > ****************************************************************** > > Bundesamt für Landestopographie - Swiss Federal Office of Topography > Thematische Kartografie - Thematic Cartography > Seftigenstrasse 264 > Postfach > CH-3084 Wabern > > ********************************************** > > Tel: ++41-31 963 24 64 (CH: 031 963 24 64) > Fax: ++41-31 963 24 59 (CH: 031 963 24 59) > E-Mail: > Web: > > ****************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > Dear Markus, I am interested in receiving the questionaire in English. I am very interested in the Swiss initiative as I am working in a project of digitization of Italian Atlases. Thanks. Vladimiro WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW Vladimiro Valerio Via Raffaello Morghen, 88 I-80129 Napoli phone &fax +39-081-5568952 +39-335-403807 vladimir@unina.it Istituto Universitario di Architettura Dipartimento di Storia della Architettura San Polo 2468 - Palazzo Badoer I-30125 Venezia +39-041-2571458 vladimir@iuav.it WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW PER ASPERA AD ASTRA WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:18:59 +0100 From: Paul van den Brink Organization: Utrecht University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Dutch Colonial Atlas Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear all

I am preparing an introduction to a fotomechanic reproduction of the "Atlas van Tropisch Nederland" (Atlas of the Dutch Colonies), to be published in october 2003. This atlas was originally published in 1938 in cooperation with the Royal Netherlands Geographical Society (KNAG) and after a preparation period of more than 30 years. In reconstructing the history of this atlas I have become aware of a pre-publication in 1917 of some early concepts of at least five maps all representing (to my knowledge) the Dutch West-Indies. These concepts were presented as a gift to the directors of the American Geographical Society. In a letter to the KNAG, dated August 11, 1917, I. Bowman thanked the Dutch Geographical Society for `the gift of the sheets of the Atlas van Ned. Indie". He continued: "A critical mention of these maps will be duly made in the Geographical Review published by the Society".

I have two questions: 1. does anyone knows if and when this "critical mention" was published in the Geographical Review of the AGS, and 2. Does anyone (Francis?) know if other sets of these maps were sent to (and reviewed by) Geographical Societies elsewhere?

Dr. Paul van den Brink
Explokart Research Team
(And Archivist of the Royal Netherlands Geographical Society)
University of Utrecht
The Netherlands
 
  X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MSHirsch@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:42:31 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Map collecting - a hobby or an investment? To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 259 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 As a collector who began collecting over 20 years ago, I have noticed two trends. First, dealers now sell mostly to individual collectors, not institutions. Since collectors tend to recycle maps back into the map trade, the supply is not diminishing as fast as it did say 25 years ago. Second, my intuition says the number of serious collectors has not increased dramatically. To be completely arbitrary, let's say a serious collector is one who has more than 10 maps, dated pre 1800, and a theme for his or her collection. ( I'm excluding US collectors of post 1800 material, which I think has dramatically increased over the last 20 years and European collectors, of whom I have little knowledge.) I would argue that the number of serious collectors. have no more than doubled during the last 20 years. A slow diminishing of supply and a slow increasing of demand, leads to a slow, but steady, increase in prices. Is map collecting is a good investment? X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Al Magary" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Best Atlases Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:00:37 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 (I'm new on the list. Hello.) I have always thought that for intensive home and student use, the National Geographic Atlas of the World is as handsome, readable, comprehensive, and uptodate as can be, and the gazetteer has rarely failed me. My old copy has fallen apart from use and I must--tsk--now get a new one. My only complaint is that the U.S. maps are regional; some, for a local, are too crammed with information to be useful or goodlooking, such as the Northeast. I have a plain old Rand McNally road atlas for most U.S. reference purposes. Al Magary _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:17:55 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: deelong@ALASKA.COM (Dee Longenbaugh) Subject: Re: [MapHist] Best Atlases Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear All, I have had a request for a list of the best reference atlases. Would anyone care to comment on this large subject? The Times, both New York and London, for the modern, Ortelius Theatrum Orbis, and....? Thanks in advance, Dee Dee Longenbaugh deelong@alaska.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Best Atlases Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:32:11 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Before too many of us get carried away (and, believe me, some of us *should* be carried away ...) in nominating our best modern atlas(es), could we remember that this list is Map*Hist* - not MapHits. Yours, in a vain attempt at humour, Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps, RGS-IBG) f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] > -----Original Message----- > From: Al Magary [SMTP:al@magary.com] > Sent: 12 March 2002 16:01 > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: Re: [MapHist] Best Atlases > > (I'm new on the list. Hello.) I have always thought that for intensive > home and student use, the National Geographic Atlas of the World is as > handsome, readable, comprehensive, and uptodate as can be, and the > gazetteer > has > rarely failed me. My old copy has fallen apart from use and I > must--tsk--now get a new one. My only complaint is that the U.S. maps are > regional; some, for a local, are too crammed with information to be useful > or goodlooking, such as the Northeast. I have a plain old Rand McNally > road > atlas for most U.S. reference purposes. > > Al Magary > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Strebe@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:55:50 EST Subject: [MapHist] Re: Map collecting - a hobby or an investment? To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh OS X US sub 20 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Mr. Babinski occasionally feels compelled to "prove" that maps are a poor investment. He carts out the most recent tropy map on sale and compares its financial returns to more traditional investment vehicles. While an interesting exercise (perhaps), after several rounds of this over the years I, in turn, feel compelled to point out that the "evidence" Mr. Babinski proffers means nearly nothing. World-class trophy maps are not the market most collectors concentrate on. (And if they were, then trophy maps would suddenly become a very good investment indeed.) The market for mainstream antique maps shares little with the market for such trophy maps. The value of any collectible depends on its popularity. Because, statistically, the popularity of a one-of-a-kind map can't be measured, the values of trophy maps should be expected to fluctuate wildly. In essence, if two rich people happen to want the same map at the same time, then its value skyrockets. If, on the other hand, only one rich person wants it, then its value plummets. I have no idea whether antique maps in general are good investments or not. I don't particularly care. To discuss it, however, one must compare apples to apples... and even then, past performance is no indication of future returns. A proper analysis would measure historical performance against relevant factors in order to predict future performance. I'm guessing those factors are something like: a) The popularity of antique maps, expressed as a fraction of each "dollar" the populace at large spends on antique maps; b) How quickly the population grows; c) How the wealth of the population increases; d) How well information about antique maps propagates in order to remove market uncertainties; e) In tandem with (d), the growth in the sophistication of collectors; f) How the supply of antique maps fluctuates. Perhaps some of those who subscribe to MapTrade would like to move this discussion over there, along with some useful analysis. Regards, daan Strebe ________________ Dear Maphisters, On March 27, 2002 Christie's in New York will auction off the original manuscript map of the Mason-Dixon survey. It is included as Lot No. 4 in the FORBES COLLECTION OF AMERICAN DOCUMENTS, Sale No. 1032. The estimate is $800K - $1.2M. The manuscript map is entitled 'A Plan of the West Line or Parallel of Latitude which is the Boundary between the Provinces of Maryland and Pensylvania,' and it is signed by the surveyors 'Cha: Mason' and 'Jere: Dixon' in ink below the decorative cartouche, [drawn in Philadelphia, 26 December 1767-29 February 1768]. You can see a picture of this map and the complete (very detailed; excellent reference!) catalogue description (prepared by Chris Coover, Christie's Senior Specialist) at the URL provided here at end. I need not elaborate on the importance of this map, so tightly entwined with the Penns of Pennsylvania, the Baltimores of Maryland and the history of the American Civil War. As Coover writes: THIS IS THE ORIGINAL 1768 MASON-DIXON MANUSCRIPT SURVEY, ESTABLISHING A BOUNDARY WHICH BECAME THE HISTORIC MASON-DIXON LINE: 'A SYMBOL DIFFERENTIATING TWO POLITICAL DIVISIONS, TWO DEFINITE STATES OF MIND WHICH HAVE EXISTED IN THE NATION FROM THE BEGINNING OF ITS SETTLEMENT' (WROTH) The question I would like to bring up here is: ARE ANTIQUE MAPS A GOOD FINANCIAL INVESTMENT? You may recall that about a year ago that topic was discussed in this forum, with the map dealers arguing that antique maps are good 'investments' and me and a few other map collectors arguing the opposite - that antique maps are lousy 'financial investments' and that map collecting should be treated as a hobby and not an investment (financial, that is). In 2 weeks, with the Mason-Dixon map having sold, we will have a chance to get some empirical data to support one side or the other. Yet already at this point, as it relates to the Mason-Dixon map, it appears that ANTIQUE MAPS ARE LOUSY FINANCIAL INVESTMENTS! Malcolm Forbes, the shrewd New Jerseyian of Scottish heritage, proprietor of the FORBES magazine, defender of capitalism and America, bought this map almost exactly 20 years ago as lot No. 23 in the April 1, 1982 Christie's (Christie, Manson & Woods International) sale No. 5131 in New York - for $396,000 ($360,000 + 10% Premium). [Catalogue of that sale, which lists and describes other Mason-Dixon maps, is a must in a serious map collector's reference library. 25 items only, including a copy of the first printing of the Declaration of Independence, pull-out folding map, hard-bound.] If the Forbes family, who is now selling the map, pays no Seller's Premium to Christie's (a likely situation, but just a guess - considering that the total value of the sale runs into the tens of millions) then even if the map is sold at the HIGH ESTIMATE of $1.2M the annualized financial return will amount to only about 5.70% per year over the past 20 years!!! If the map sells at the LOW ESTIMATE of $800K then this dubious 'investment' will return only about $3.58% per year over the last 20 years!!! Yet, if Malcolm Forbes put his $396,000 into a super-safe, no headaches, 7-year US T-Note auctioned off by the government on March 31, 1982 (*i*) - the day prior to his purchase of the Mason-Dixon map - then already by April 1989 his nest-egg would have grown to over $1 million - about $1,016,737 to be more exact. If then he would roll over his money into another 7-year US T-Note auctioned off by the government on April 12, 1989 (*ii*) - by April 1996 his nest-egg would have grown to just under $2 million - about $1,905,689 to be more precise. If then he would roll over his money into another super-safe 5-year US T-Note auctioned off by the government on April 24, 1996 - then by April 2001 (ALREADY A YEAR AGO!) the total accumulation would have been about $2.5 million - or more specifically $2,580,458. (Thank God someone invented PCs and spreadsheets for all these arcane computations!!! And, yes, taxes (not accounted for) would decrease these numbers). But US T-Notes are safe low-yielding investments suitable for widows and orphans, and an unlikely choice for entrepreneurs like Malcolm Forbes. I am sure he (or any Joe or Jane off the street) could have done better in the last 20 years than investing in boring government bonds! Yet, I am willing to bet (a bottle of beer?) that the Mason-Dixon map will not realize the $2.5-3 million necessary for it to be equivalent to an investment in US Treasury Notes over the last 20 years. And what other example would be better if anyone wants to talk about maps as investments - the Mason-Dixon manuscript map is it, there is no higher caliber map collecting material. So what do YOU think - should you buy antique maps for 'investment' or BUY THEM FOR FUN? Mark Babinski map collector, not map investor *i* - 7-Year Note auctioned by the Treasury on 3-31-82: annual yield of 14.42%; annual interest rate of 14.375% *ii* - 7-Year Note auctioned by the Treasury on 4-12-89: annual yield of 9.39%; annual interest rate of 9.375% *iii* - 5-Year Note auctioned by the Gov. on 4-24-96: annual yield of 6.28%; annual interest rate of 6.25% MASON-DIXON map URL: http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LOTDETAIL.ASP?sid=& intObjectID=3886727 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: bmccork@bluebird.mail.ku.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:39:37 -0600 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Barbara McCorkle Subject: Re: [MapHist] Best Atlases Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dee: I'd vote for the Times atlas. I have both the National Geographic and the Times atlases, but if I could have only one, the latter would be it. I can always find the most obscure places in the Times index which is much more comprehensive than that in the NG atlas. The maps, of course, are excellent and I find some of the prefatory material more useful in T than in NG. Barbara At 07:17 AM 3/12/02 -0900, you wrote: >Dear All, > I have had a request for a list of the best reference atlases. >Would anyone care to comment on this large subject? The Times, both New >York and London, for the modern, Ortelius Theatrum Orbis, and....? > Thanks in advance, > Dee > >Dee Longenbaugh >deelong@alaska.com > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht >List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl >List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:08:15 EST Subject: [MapHist] Re: Map collecting - a hobby or an investment? To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 256 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 3/12/2002 1:16:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, Strebe@aol.com writes:

Mr. Babinski occasionally feels compelled to "prove" that maps are a poor
investment. He carts out the most recent tropy map on sale and compares its
financial returns to more traditional investment vehicles. While an
interesting exercise (perhaps), after several rounds of this over the years
I, in turn, feel compelled to point out that the "evidence" Mr. Babinski
proffers means nearly nothing. World-class trophy maps are not the market
most collectors concentrate on. (And if they were, then trophy maps would
suddenly become a very good investment indeed.) The market for mainstream
antique maps shares little with the market for such trophy maps. The value of
any collectible depends on its popularity. Because, statistically, the
popularity of a one-of-a-kind map can't be measured, the values of trophy
maps should be expected to fluctuate wildly. In essence, if two rich people
happen to want the same map at the same time, then its value skyrockets. If,
on the other hand, only one rich person wants it, then its value plummets.


While Daan makes an excellent point reminding us above that "the value of any collectible depends on its popularity", it is difficult to grasp or agree with the rest of his thoughts.

Statistically, the popularity of a one-of-a-kind map CAN EASILY be measured - auction results in US dollars over time, pure and simple, nothing more, nothing less. On the other hand, the popularity of run-of-the-mill maps is DIFFICULT to measure - because one has to consider a myriad of factors - including the quality/condition of the map, which is a very subjective issue (Is a 2 inch tear in the middle of the map as bad as a 4 inch tear in the margin? If a fine copy of a Burr map sells for $1,000, a copy of the same map torn in the middle for $300, a torn in the margin and stained copy of the same map for $150 - what do these 3 sales figures tell us about the popularity of this map? - difficult to say!!!). One does not have to consider the condition of a one-of-a-kind item when measuring its popularity.

As to the value of a map being determined by the number of people bidding on it - what exactly is the point Daan that you are trying to make??? That the laws of supply and demand govern materials sold at auction? - if 8 people bid on one item the price skyrockets, if 3 it goes up but less, if only 1 it stays low (at starting bid)??? But everyone knows that. Or is it your point that there are only 1 or 2 (but no more) "rich" bidders on a one-of-a-kind item? But Daan, this is America, with a LOT of "rich" people - and 3 or more can quite legally bid on the same EXPENSIVE unique item at auction, even in New York.

But maybe the point is that ONLY "rich" people bid on unique one-of-a-kind maps? I dare say not - take a look at the Lewis Robinson map of Illinois that was auctioned off on ebay barely 2 weeks ago - at URL:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1516824219

There were 6 bidders bidding on the map. It sold to the winner for $634. But I know that the winner is not "rich" and I don't think the other 5 bidders (2 of whom are map dealers) consider themselves "rich" - yet according to Ristow (American Maps and Mapmakers, p. 271-3) that Illinois map may be a UNIQUE ONE-OF-A-KIND example (one would have to follow up on Ristow's reference to the Dalphin and McCorison study).

But hey, maybe I am wrong - we will find out (to some [statistically significant?] extent at least) if "investment" and "map collecting" are related - WHEN WE GET THE SALES FIGURE for the Mason-Dixon map on March 27.

As to my "compulsion" in bringing forth this whole issue - it was more to call my fellow MapHisters' attention to the Mason-Dixon map (especially since Christie's has a nice picture of the map in its web-based catalog description of the lot) than the issue of "proving"(?) that maps are a poor [financial] investment.

Mark

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:39:33 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] Best Atlases Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Barbara, Thanks much. This is for an editor who is compiling a book of the best references in many areas. I knew you guys would have the answers. Cheers! Dee >Dee: I'd vote for the Times atlas. I have both the National Geographic >and the Times atlases, but if I could have only one, the latter would be >it. I can always find the most obscure places in the Times index which is >much more comprehensive than that in the NG atlas. The maps, of course, >are excellent and I find some of the prefatory material more useful in T >than in NG. > Barbara > -- The Observatory, ABAA 200 North Franklin Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone 907/586-9676 Fax 907/586-9606 deelong@alaska.com http://www.observatorybooks.com 1977-2002, our 25th year _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl From: F.Herbert@RGS.org To: peter@maphist.nl Cc: cobb@fas.harvard.edu, edahl@iosphere.net Subject: FW: [MapHist] Best Atlases Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:37:52 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Peter: What are these messages (free market research for an un-named editor?) doing on MapHist? Will the "editor who is compiling a book of the best references in many areas" pay for support of MapHist? I was surprised, too, that Barbara joined in enthusiastically. Francis f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] > -----Original Message----- > From: Dee Longenbaugh [SMTP:deelong@ALASKA.COM] > Sent: 13 March 2002 00:40 > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: Re: [MapHist] Best Atlases > > Dear Barbara, > Thanks much. This is for an editor who is compiling a book of > the best references in many areas. I knew you guys would have the > answers. > Cheers! > Dee > > > >Dee: I'd vote for the Times atlas. I have both the National Geographic > >and the Times atlases, but if I could have only one, the latter would be > >it. I can always find the most obscure places in the Times index which > is > >much more comprehensive than that in the NG atlas. The maps, of course, > >are excellent and I find some of the prefatory material more useful in T > >than in NG. > > Barbara > > > -- > The Observatory, ABAA > 200 North Franklin > Juneau, Alaska 99801 > Telephone 907/586-9676 > Fax 907/586-9606 > deelong@alaska.com > http://www.observatorybooks.com > 1977-2002, our 25th year > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Rodney Shirley" To: Cc: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forwarded Query Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:15:44 -0000 Organization: UUNET X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 This was a request for information under the heading `Dubrovnik Museums'. I was glad to read that Anica Kisic is carrying forward her studies on the isolarii and route books showing, in particular, the Dalmatian coast. As well as the town and island books by the Bertelli family you mention I am sure works by Rosaccio, Valegio and Camocio, and probably others too, are also being covered. The British Library has a 1568 copy of Bertelli's Civitatum with 87 maps, plans or views; pressmark Maps C.7.c.9. It also has 3 copies of the Beauvau work you cite; Nancy 1615 with 49 maps (pressmark G.7199); Paris 1615 ditto (566.g.23.(1)) and Nancy 1619 (790.i.22.(1)) also with the same maps. I don't know offhand if the Forlani-Zenoi town books include Croatia/Dalmatia but there is an excellent article discussing their composition and influence. It is by Albert Ganado (of Malta) called `The Forlani-Zenoi town books of 1567: A Description and Analysis' in `Florilegium Cartographicum' [Festschrift for Dr.Fritz Hellwig], Leipzig, 1993. The article is in English. Please give my best regards to Anica Kisic (and to Ankica Pandzic if she is still with you) as I they actively hosted the IMCoS Conference in Dubrovnik and Zagreb in 1988 and I met them then. Rodney Shirley rws@dial.pipex.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duane F. Marble" To: "maphist" Sent: 11 March 2002 13:22 Subject: [MapHist] Forwarded Query > The following was distributed on the SEA-GIS list: > > From: Mira Miletic [mailto:mmiletic@nsk.hr] > Sent: 11 March 2002 12:31 > To: libergdc-dg@bravo.nls.uk > Subject: Fw: Fw. Isolarii > > Dubrovnik Museums > > Maritime museum > > Dubrovnik > > Croatia > > The Maritime Museum of Dubrovnik decided to collect documentation, the photocopies or photographs of > the Isolarii from 16th and the beginning of 17th century which > contain the copperplate engravings with maps and views from the Croatian Eastern Adriatic coast > (that Isolarii usually review the geographical charts and views of towns > from Venice to Constantinopoli across the Eastern Adriatic coast, Albanian coast and the Greek > islands). We intend to write an article about them. > > According to the bibliography (R. Almagia, F. Borroni Salvadori, R. Gallo, F. Bachman) we know for > the isolario "Civitatum aliquot insignor(um) et locor(um), magis munitor, > exacta delineatio: Cum additione aliquot Insularum principalium, Disegni di alcune piu illustri > citta et fortezze del mondo con aggiunta di alcune Isole principali, Venetiis > MDLXLVII (1568) Fernando Bertelli formis". > > In this addition of Isolar, according to F. Bachmann, Die Alten stadtebilder, Stuttgart, 1965, the > Fernando Bertelli´s Isloario consists of print views and maps of eastern > Adriatic coastal cities: Clissa, Dulcigno, Durazzo, ragusa, Scardona, Sebenico, Spalato, Trau, Zara > (as well as maps of the Greak coast and islands). > > We have to point out that the Fernando Bertelli`s Isolar edition from 1568. differs from the adition > of Donato Bertelli`s Isolar which was published under the same title in > 1574. (Biblioteca Marciana posseses the sample of this Isolar) > > The same F. Bachmann also mentions the Isolario: Domenico Zenoi, Civitatum aliquot insignorum et > locorum munimentorum delineato. Venetiis 1573. with the > copperplate engravings of the following places: Cattaro, Dulcigno, Durazzo, Ragusa, Scutari, > Sebenico, Zara. > > We also try to find the addition of the book Relation Journaliere du voyage du Levant faict et > descript par Haut et puissant Seigneur Henry de Beauvau... Nancy 1615. > We have to point also (according to the bibliography) that the older addition of the book from 1608. > had not the copper engravings, but the addition from 1615. have some > from the Eastern Adriatic coast. > > If you are in possesion of these three books, and if they contain the maps and views mentioned > above, we would kindly request you to inform us about the price and the > mode of payment for the copies. > > If you do not have the samples, would you be so kind to give us advice which Library could have it. > If this e mail reaches the wrong department of your Library would you please procede it to the right > one. > > Yours sincerely, > > Anica Kisiæ, Mr.sc. > > > -- > Dr. Duane F. Marble > Professor Emeritus of Geography Telephone: 614-292-4419 > Center for Mapping Fax: 614-292-8062 > The Ohio State University > 1216 Kinnear Email: marble.1@osu.edu > Columbus, Ohio 43212 > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-WebMail-UserID: macmap@staff.uiuc.edu Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:49:54 -0600 From: macmap To: maphist X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00003242 Subject: RE: [MapHist] Best Atlases X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61.08 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dee, For personal use I prefer Goode's World Atlas. It basically has everything that the folio size atlases do but at a fraction of the costs. Plus it fits on a normal book shelf. Best wishes, Scott McEathron >===== Original Message From Barbara McCorkle ===== >Dee: I'd vote for the Times atlas. I have both the National Geographic >and the Times atlases, but if I could have only one, the latter would be >it. I can always find the most obscure places in the Times index which is >much more comprehensive than that in the NG atlas. The maps, of course, >are excellent and I find some of the prefatory material more useful in T >than in NG. > Barbara > >At 07:17 AM 3/12/02 -0900, you wrote: >>Dear All, >> I have had a request for a list of the best reference atlases. >>Would anyone care to comment on this large subject? The Times, both New >>York and London, for the modern, Ortelius Theatrum Orbis, and....? >> Thanks in advance, >> Dee >> >>Dee Longenbaugh >>deelong@alaska.com >> >> >>_______________________________________________________________ >>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht >>List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl >>List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl >>List Information: http://www.maphist.nl >> > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht >List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl >List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Sender: cobb@pop.fas.harvard.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:43:44 -0500 To: F.Herbert@RGS.org, peter@maphist.nl From: David Cobb Subject: Re: FW: [MapHist] Best Atlases Cc: edahl@iosphere.net Francis - Now, now Francis - surely if we can receive "penis enlargement" messages I think a message or two on a good atlas might be allowed. By the way, knowone has really mentioned that these atlases must be current; perhaps I could nominate my favorite - a colored Ptolemy from 1584?! David At 09:37 AM 3/13/02 -0000, F.Herbert@RGS.org wrote: >Peter: > >What are these messages (free market research for an un-named editor?) doing >on MapHist? Will the "editor who is compiling a book of the best references >in many areas" pay for support of MapHist? I was surprised, too, that >Barbara joined in enthusiastically. > >Francis >f.herbert@rgs.org >http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dee Longenbaugh [SMTP:deelong@ALASKA.COM] >> Sent: 13 March 2002 00:40 >> To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >> Subject: Re: [MapHist] Best Atlases >> >> Dear Barbara, >> Thanks much. This is for an editor who is compiling a book of >> the best references in many areas. I knew you guys would have the >> answers. >> Cheers! >> Dee >> >> >> >Dee: I'd vote for the Times atlas. I have both the National Geographic >> >and the Times atlases, but if I could have only one, the latter would be >> >it. I can always find the most obscure places in the Times index which >> is >> >much more comprehensive than that in the NG atlas. The maps, of course, >> >are excellent and I find some of the prefatory material more useful in T >> >than in NG. >> > Barbara >> > >> -- >> The Observatory, ABAA >> 200 North Franklin >> Juneau, Alaska 99801 >> Telephone 907/586-9676 >> Fax 907/586-9606 >> deelong@alaska.com >> http://www.observatorybooks.com >> 1977-2002, our 25th year >> _______________________________________________________________ >> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht >> List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl >> List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl >> List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > *************************************************************************** David A. Cobb Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard Map Collection FAX 617.496.0440 Harvard College Library Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu Cambridge, MA 02138 HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps ************************** VERITAS **************************************** X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Ronald Whistance-Smith" To: Subject: [MapHist] identifying early map makers Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:26:29 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:26:07 -0700 (MST)
From: K Pinto <kpinto@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] identifying early map makers (fwd)


It would not be wise to rely upon the information on this website--at
least not for Islamic mapping. A great deal of the information is out of
date and confused.  The author has thrown together a hodge podge of images
from different manuscripts often with seriously incorrect dates. For
instance, he dates the famous world map from the Leiden ms. (see HoC 2.1,
plate 7) as 977/1570 A.D. This is an atrocious mistake.  The ms. is
generally dated to 569 A.H.  (after Hijra--i.e. the Muslim calendar)/ 1173
A.D.  (I have redated this to 1193 A.D.)  In other words the date given on
this website for this map is approx.  four centuries off!  I puzzled over
this for a while and decided that the author of the website somehow got
Ibn Hawqal confused for al-Istakhri.  Thus he took Ibn Hawqal's death date
of ca. 367 A.H./ 977 A.D. and attached it to the Leiden map.  He further
misunderstood the date by taking the already converted Christian calendar
date and reconverted it!  Hence arriving at the completely false date of
1570!  Quite amazing.  Other mistakes among numerous others include the
citing of al-Kashgari as an Arab when in fact he was Turkish.
I teach my students not to rely completely on web based material.  At
least not yet.  In general I find that web based content can be quite
misleading unless the page is put up by a reliable source.  If someone
needs reasonably up-to-date, accurate info. on Islamic mapping, HoC 2.1 is
still the source to go to.

Approach this site with extreme caution!

Sincerely,
Karen Pinto


On Sat, 9 Mar 2002, Joel Kovarsky wrote:

> Regarding Al-Idrisi, see:
> <http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/219mono.html>
> Included at this site is the statement:
>
> "...and the authoritative geographical knowledge of the Western world was
> destined to develop unenriched by the treasures which Roger and Idrisi
> together had amassed. The first translation known of Idrisi's work was
> published in Rome only in 1619, and then in a very much shortened form (the
> translator did not even known the author's name). While in the world maps
> of Marino Sanudo and Pietro Vesconte we find Idrisi's influence very
> apparent here and there (Slide #228), and although his record of the
> Deceived Men of Lisbon and their explorations in the Western Ocean may have
> had a certain effect in stimulating the later Atlantic enterprises of
> Christian mariners, the Geography of Idrisi never seems to have become a
> European textbook."
>
>
>       Joel Kovarsky
>
>
> At 04:43 PM 3/6/02 +0100, you wrote:
> >the "Nubian geographer" refers to the "Geographia Nubiensis", the work of
> >the 11th Century Arab cartographer, Al-Idrisi (1099-1164), whose work was
> >first translated into French in Paris in 1619 and was used (amongst others)
> >by Nicolas Sanson as one of the sources for his 1654 folio map of Arabia :
> >"Carte des Trois Arabies"....
>
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: ahudson@NYPL.ORG Subject: [MapHist] Map Institute at NYPL flier --fyi, for the last time. To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, maps-l@listserv.uga.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:03:12 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 03/13/2002 01:03:44 PM X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id TAA03828 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Pratt-SILS Institute on Map Collections at the New York Public Library Summer Session I: M-F 9:00 am-5:00 pm June 3-14, 2002 NYPL, Fifth & 42nd Alice Hudson Course number: LIS 697P Maps provide essential and efficient delivery of information for all types of subjects across time. Ecology, history, property, archaeology, events in the news -- all can be clarified by the cartographer's artistic and scientific hand, or via geographic information systems. During this 2-week institute you will explore the intricacies of map collecting in local and national libraries, as well as private collectors. Map librarianship will be studied in seminars with The New York Public Library's distinguished Map Librarians, and through visits to local map libraries, map stores and antiquarian dealers. Participants will draw upon this information and experience to investigate and evaluate specific research areas and topics. This is a three credit graduate level course in the Master of Science in Library and Information Science program at Pratt Institute. Tuition is $637 per credit plus incidental fees. Registration is limited to 15 students and auditing is not permitted. Anyone who is not a matriculated student in the MS program at Pratt must apply and register using a "Visiting/Special Student" application. This can be requested from the SILS Office by sending a request to vthomas@pratt.edu. It must be accompanied by a copy of a transcript proving completion of at least a baccalaureate degree. Proof of medical coverage must also be provided by submitting copies of the front and back of the health insurance card. Auditing of this course will not be possible. For registration information and assistance, contact Mrs. Vinette Thomas (718-636-3710) or Alexandra Nader (718-636-3656) For course content information contact the instructor at ahudson@nypl.org I promise not to send anymore info on this to the lists!! Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html [Please bookmark the Map Division website!] _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:49:12 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [MapHist] identifying early map makers Cc: kpinto@GPU.SRV.UALBERTA.CA Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 At 10:26 AM 3/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:26:07 -0700 (MST)
From: K Pinto <kpinto@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] identifying early map makers (fwd)


It would not be wise to rely upon the information on this website--at
least not for Islamic mapping. A great deal of the information is out of
date and confused. 

Karen Pinto's remarks are very helpful. I made no pretext of being expert in Islamic cartography when I noted the comments at the site in reference. Still, the original thread dealt with a question posed by Matthew Edney, regarding a reference by Morden to a "Nubian geographer", and Al-Idrisi's name was mentioned as  a possiblity. Following Ms. Pinto's admonition, I looked in vol. 2.1 of The History of Cartography, and on p. 8 it states: "A translation of al-Idrisi's text by Jaubert in 1840 first focused scholarly attention on the study of Islamic geography". (a 2 volume set is referenced in note 16 there; there is quite of bit of added information pertaining to al-Idrisi in that volume). This would seem to imply relatively little awareness of the geographer's substantive contributions in Morden's time. 

I teach my students not to rely completely on web based material.  At
least not yet.  In general I find that web based content can be quite
misleading unless the page is put up by a reliable source.

I hope no one thinks there was any implication that there should be sole reliance on web-based material. This current exchange argues for the value of forums like MapHist, in terms of pointing out informational inaccuracies and disputes, with the hope that web sources will be continuously improved (this would seem likely). It is improbable that the demand for more accessible and accurate web resources will slacken.

 If someone
needs reasonably up-to-date, accurate info. on Islamic mapping, HoC 2.1 is
still the source to go to.

These volumes are a wonderful resource, for those that have relatively convenient access. (And perhaps someone could comment on those more accurate web resources available concerning the ancient cartography of the Mediterranean environs, if those sites exist.)


Approach this site with extreme caution!

Fair enough. (Were those limited comments from the site about al-Idrisi inaccurate?)

             Joel Kovarsky X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 14:31:06 -0800 (PST) From: Frances Woodward To: Map History Discussion List Subject: [MapHist] map evaluation web site Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I have just heard about a new web page for people wanting to have their old maps valued. It is at the Branner Earth Sciences Library at Stanford University. http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/branner/mapvalutaion.htm Don't try to correct the typo - "mapvalutaion" works, and "mapvaluation" does not. Julie Sweetkind-Singer, GIS and Map Librarian at Branner, posted a notice to Maps-L, and asked for any feedback or additional information to be sent to her at sweetkind@stanford.edu. Cheers, Fran ************************************************************************** Frances Woodward, Reference Librarian, Special Collections, Main Library, University of British Columbia, 1956 Main Mall, Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 Tel: (604) 822-2819 Fax: (604) 822-9587 E-mail: franwood@interchange.ubc.ca URL: http://www.library.ubc.ca/spcoll/ Historical Maps Collection and Cartographic Archives Arkley Collection of Historical Children's Literature ************************************************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" Subject: [MapHist] Lecture next week Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:59:26 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Rather short notice, but posted (by Tony Campbell) in case it is of interest to anyone on the list:

‘The Book of Curiosities of the Branches, and Marvels from the Sources, of Knowledge’: A recently discovered 11th-century illustrated astronomical and geographical treatise.

An illustrated lecture by

Dr Jeremy Johns and Dr. Emilie Savage-Smith

The Oriental Institute, University of Oxford


Only very recently have scholars learned of the existence of a manuscript containing a highly illustrated treatise on astronomy and geography compiled by an unknown author in the late 11th century using predominately 10th-century sources. This is the only known copy and was probably made in Egypt in the 12th or 13th century. The treatise is divided into two books: one concerned with astronomy, containing an illustrated discussion of comets and numerous star-groups; the other devoted to geography and to natural and supernatural phenomena, which contains seventeen maps including two world maps of great importance and the earliest recorded maps of the islands of Cyprus and Sicily. Most of the maps are without parallel in any other Arabic, Persian, Greek, or Latin works. It is a most exciting discovery, and this lecture will be the first time ‘The Book of Curiosities’ has been discussed in a public forum.

Society for the History of Medieval Science and Technology

16 March 2002, 2:30 PM

Imperial College
London
Seminar Room 5, 5th Floor
Sherfield Building
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Lecture next week Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:26:54 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 By which Tony means, of course, *this* week! It's this Saturday (round the corner from RGS-IBG, so I've no excuse not to be there I suppose). Unfortunately my little exhibition, based upon Italian 16th- to18th-century MS and printed items from this Society's Collections, publicising the next 'Maps and Society' Lecture at the Warburg Institute on 21st, will not be accessible on Saturday. 'Pedant' f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] > -----Original Message----- > From: tony campbell [SMTP:t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk] > Sent: 14 March 2002 07:59 > To: *MapHist > Subject: [MapHist] Lecture next week > > Rather short notice, but posted (by Tony Campbell) in case it is of > interest to anyone on the list: > > 'The Book of Curiosities of the Branches, and Marvels from the Sources, of > Knowledge': A recently discovered 11th-century illustrated astronomical > and geographical treatise. > > An illustrated lecture by > > > Dr Jeremy Johns and Dr. Emilie Savage-Smith > > The Oriental Institute, University of Oxford > > > Only very recently have scholars learned of the existence of a manuscript > containing a highly illustrated treatise on astronomy and geography > compiled by an unknown author in the late 11th century using predominately > 10th-century sources. This is the only known copy and was probably made in > Egypt in the 12th or 13th century. The treatise is divided into two books: > one concerned with astronomy, containing an illustrated discussion of > comets and numerous star-groups; the other devoted to geography and to > natural and supernatural phenomena, which contains seventeen maps > including two world maps of great importance and the earliest recorded > maps of the islands of Cyprus and Sicily. Most of the maps are without > parallel in any other Arabic, Persian, Greek, or Latin works. It is a most > exciting discovery, and this lecture will be the first time 'The Book of > Curiosities' has been discussed in a public forum. > > Society for the History of Medieval Science and Technology > > 16 March 2002, 2:30 PM > > Imperial College > London > Seminar Room 5, 5th Floor > Sherfield Building > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:11:06 -0500 To: maptrade@RAREMAPS.COM From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: [MapHist] International Antiquarian Map-Dealers Association Cc: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Hello, and pardon the intrusion. Some of you will recognize what is being said here based on previous discussions. I wonder if there would be any support for an "International Antiquarian Map-Dealers Association" (IAMA- for those who like initials)? (This was purposely cross-posted to MapHist, as I would like opinions from non-dealers as well.) It would seem silly to do this country by country, given the small number of map-dealers relative to book-dealers, but I wonder if this could function as a more effective marketing and informational force, with the specific goal of having some credentialling similar to those organizations under the auspices of the ILAB. I know the idea has been mentioned before, and there has been both understandable concern and inertia, but  I can see a place for a centralized online site for antiquarian map dealers.  We could certainly set up a site, containing public and private areas, with information similar to the ILAB/ABAA/ABA and other similar organizations. It could have a focused role to play in centralizing and promoting information, including reporting of stolen material, and public and private lists, dealer and collector discussions, and more. I know that several dealers who will see this already belong to the ILAB and affiliates, but one quiet thread that has run through several conversations is the increasing specialization of the antiquarian map trade, and a distinct sense of being apart from some book organizations.

A website would serve both public and trade interests. I have reserved www.antiquemapdealers.com (nothing there yet), and would gladly donate that (it is prepaid for 2 years) without strings to any central organization (as a site just for the organization). One concern had been a sense of competition with IMCoS, which I hope would not be the case, as the dealer site would centralize and promote a restrictive trade organization, with criteria for membership, stated goals, and aims for specifically promote the antiquarian map trade. I have made some crude prototype documents (obviously based on ILAB and its affilitiates), including membership criteria, ethical statement, and goals. I would be happy to email copies of those to any who wish it (some of you have already seen these). One obvious benefit might be a page for reporting stolen cartographic material, based on the ABAA form at:  <http://www.abaa.org/contact/sb-alert.html>. I do not know what sort of quorum would be required to get this started, but I would hope a number of dealers would be willing to help get this going.

Thank you for wading through this, and I expect some decidedly negative reactions, which is fine. Please email, or call me (off list, if preferred, especially for MapHist; I would rather much of this be public on maptrade, if at all possible). We will be at IMCoS in June, and this could be discussed further at that time, if there was enough support.





 




Joel Kovarsky for THE PRIME MERIDIAN
385 Thistle Trail, Danville, VA 24540 USA
Phone: 434/724-1106; Fax: 434/799-0218
email:  jsk@gamewood.net
Search/Shopping Cart: <http://www.theprimemeridian.com/cgi-bin/store/agora.cgi> X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:31:19 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] International Antiquarian Map-Dealers Association To: maphist@geog.uu.nl CC: heritage@carto.com X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 256 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 3/14/2002 4:24:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, jsk@gamewood.net writes:


One obvious benefit might be a page for reporting stolen cartographic material, based on the ABAA form

James Hess at The Heritage Map Museum has been maintaining a rudimentary reporting page for reporting stolen cartographic material - accessible from his Home Page at www.carto.com. Maybe he would have some ideas.
Mark Babinski X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] International Antiquarian Map-Dealers Association Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 08:57:49 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
I comment on just one part of Joel Kovarsky's interesting message, namely about the reporting of stolen map material [and with apologies for the length].
 
This is a highly complex and sensitive issue, mainly because many institutions (for understandable reasons) do not wish to reveal that they have been targetted.  Then again, some police forces take the view that a publicity blackout makes it easier to catch the thief.  It is for that reason that few details have yet emerged publicly about the spate of thefts that were discovered early last year from several European libraries, despite the requests for information from the trade.  The legitimacy of these conflicting agendas must be accepted and understood.
 
Some time ago I prepared a discussion page about those thefts to put onto the 'Map History' site.  Other things then intervened.  Matters are now about to be taken forward, at least in the UK, via a meeting in late April, organised jointly by the national committee for map libraries and archives (BRICMICS) and the Antiquarian Booksellers' Association.  At this stage, it may be sensible for me to hold back on publishing my page until after that meeting, which will, I hope, produce specific suggestions for further action.
 
One of the main points that can be made now, though, is that the 'Identifying Marks' box on the ABAA report form is not just an optional extra.  When dealing with the kinds of 'common' early maps affected by the recent European thefts (and Gilbert Bland in the US before that) the copy specific information is far and away the *most important* part.   A distinction has to be made between the shared bibliographical details (e.g. size of the plate) and the unique details (i.e. size of the paper).  The few details that have so far been released would probably apply equally to several copies of the maps concerned, legitimately (if questionably) removed from their original volumes and currently in the trade (and on dealers' web pages).  Given that the maps were removed from atlases which remain with the library, providing copy specific information would not be difficult.   An agreed template would need to be drawn up to capture that information.
 
I already link to James Hess's site {as an aside, is he still at the same address - I am having trouble reaching him by mail?}and am grateful for what he is doing there.  But, if the process of notification is to prove effective it would, I suggest, need to be (a) instantaneous, (b) with sufficient detail to identify that unique map, (c) probably with all references to the institution concerned suppressed, (d) fully international, and (e) done in such a way that the institutions, trade and police are all happy.  If such a centralised register were established, it might form part of the growing 'due diligence' obligations placed on a dealer, i.e. that he/she has taken positive steps to check that an item has not been stolen.
 
My forthcoming page willl offer a more detailed argument along those lines [from someone who, perhaps uniquely, has been both a map dealer and a librarian].  I had also intended announcing it to MapHist when published, with the intention of stimulating a general debate.  I would prefer to leave that, now, until the UK community has had a chance to debate the issues.  But Joel's offer to provide web space must clearly be one of the options, though there are various others.
 
The comments above have no bearing on Joel's central and attractive suggestion that an international organisation be set up for antiquarian map dealers.
 
Joel, perhaps you would be kind enough to forward this to the MapTrade list.
 
Tony Campbell
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: ahudson@NYPL.ORG Subject: [MapHist] correction on dates, map librarianship course flier To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, maps-l@listserv.uga.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:42:26 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 03/15/2002 10:42:59 AM X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id QAA02732 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Mapsters, Apologies for the date error on the flier prepared by Pratt. It is now correct, see below. Thanks to April Carlucci for catching this one... Apologies for yet another posting. Alice Pratt-SILS Institute on Map Collections at the New York Public Library Summer Session I: M-F 9:00 am-5:00 pm June 17-28, 2002 NYPL, Fifth & 42nd Alice Hudson Course number: LIS 697P Maps provide essential and efficient delivery of information for all types of subjects across time. Ecology, history, property, archaeology, events in the news -- all can be clarified by the cartographer's artistic and scientific hand, or via geographic information systems. During this 2-week institute you will explore the intricacies of map collecting in local and national libraries, as well as private collectors. Map librarianship will be studied in seminars with The New York Public Library's distinguished Map Librarians, and through visits to local map libraries, map stores and antiquarian dealers. Participants will draw upon this information and experience to investigate and evaluate specific research areas and topics. This is a three credit graduate level course in the Master of Science in Library and Information Science program at Pratt Institute. Tuition is $637 per credit plus incidental fees. Registration is limited to 15 students and auditing is not permitted. Anyone who is not a matriculated student in the MS program at Pratt must apply and register using a "Visiting/Special Student" application. This can be requested from the SILS Office by sending a request to vthomas@pratt.edu. It must be accompanied by a copy of a transcript proving completion of at least a baccalaureate degree. Proof of medical coverage must also be provided by submitting copies of the front and back of the health insurance card. Auditing of this course will not be possible. For registration information and assistance, contact Mrs. Vinette Thomas (718-636-3710) or Alexandra Nader (718-636-3656) For course content information contact the instructor at ahudson@nypl.org. Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jd1010247/pop.onemain.com@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:46:37 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "John W. Docktor" Subject: Re: [MapHist] International Antiquarian Map-Dealers Association Cc: t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >I already link to James Hess's site {as an aside, is he still at the same >address - I am having trouble reaching him by mail?} Jim Hess on his web page gives a mail address of P.O. Box 412, Lititz, PA 17543 USA; but last month I was in his shop at Heritage Map Museum, 49 N. Broad St., Lititz, PA 17543 USA. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John W. Docktor Phone: 717-846-8997 Fax: 717-845-9337 jdocktor@cyberia.com Cartography - Calendars of Events & Exhibitions: http://www.docktor.com/ Washington Map Society: http://www.washmap.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Weiss" To: "Maphist" Subject: [MapHist] Boundary between E & W Florida, c1814 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:33:58 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I hope someone can either help me from memory or point me towards a suitable online map resource - I need to know the boundary between East and West Florida at the time of the War of 1812. From http://dhr.dos.state.fl.us/flafacts/shorthis.html#british it appears that it was the British that made the division, though another site says the British occupied only East Florida, but I'm not clear as to whether the Spanish retained an administrative division on re-occupation in 1783/4. One quite detailed map (for which I have lost the identification, but seen at NYPL) seems to show the Apalachicola river as the boundary, but as the same map is quite at variance with others as to the Georgia border around the mouth of St Mary's River coupled with oddities as to the relation between Cumberland and Amelia Islands I feel I can't actually rely on it. I look forward to simple illumination. John Weiss Independent Scholar _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: LOUDEV@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 08:31:24 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Boundary between E & W Florida, c1814 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows XP US sub 50 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 West Florida was created as a British colony in 1763.  For info see: Robin F.A. Fabel, The Economy of British West Florida, 1763 - 1783 (U. of Al;abama Press:1989). X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Weiss" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Boundary between E & W Florida, c1814 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:23:08 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In further web searches since my original posting I have read that the British divided Florida into West and East for administrative purpose when they took possession in 1763, but I still can find no web reference that tells me (a) where the division lay, (b) whether the Spanish maintained that division when they resumed possession in 1783. John Weiss ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] Boundary between E & W Florida, c1814 : West Florida was created as a British colony in 1763. For info see: Robin : F.A. Fabel, The Economy of British West Florida, 1763 - 1783 (U. of Al;abama : Press:1989). : _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 08:27:35 -0600 (CST) From: Tim Williams To: Maphist Subject: Re: [MapHist] Boundary between E & W Florida, c1814 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 John I've made a link to a jpeg I constructed this morning with two resources if it might be of use: http://home1.gte.net/jundo/pics/maphist.jpg Tim Tim Williams Maps & Prints 1405 E Walnut St. Columbia MO 65201 .................................................................... Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full to talk about. Ideas, language, even the phrase 'each other' doesn't make any sense. -Rumi ................................................. On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, John Weiss wrote: > I hope someone can either help me from memory or point me towards a suitable > online map resource - I need to know the boundary between East and West > Florida at the time of the War of 1812. From > http://dhr.dos.state.fl.us/flafacts/shorthis.html#british it appears that it > was the British that made the division, though another site says the British > occupied only East Florida, but I'm not clear as to whether the Spanish > retained an administrative division on re-occupation in 1783/4. One quite > detailed map (for which I have lost the identification, but seen at NYPL) > seems to show the Apalachicola river as the boundary, but as the same map is > quite at variance with others as to the Georgia border around the mouth of > St Mary's River coupled with oddities as to the relation between Cumberland > and Amelia Islands I feel I can't actually rely on it. I look forward to > simple illumination. > > John Weiss > Independent Scholar > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Phil Stover" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Boundary between E & W Florida, c1814 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 09:40:33 -0500 Organization: The Portolan Group X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The boundary between the two was the Apalachicola River. This map gives the details and is very well respected. "Florida" from Gentleman's Magazine. 1763. A Map of the New Governments, of East & West Florida. It may be included on Jim Hess' cd-rom. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Weiss" To: "Maphist" Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 7:33 AM Subject: [MapHist] Boundary between E & W Florida, c1814 > I hope someone can either help me from memory or point me towards a suitable > online map resource - I need to know the boundary between East and West > Florida at the time of the War of 1812. From > http://dhr.dos.state.fl.us/flafacts/shorthis.html#british it appears that it > was the British that made the division, though another site says the British > occupied only East Florida, but I'm not clear as to whether the Spanish > retained an administrative division on re-occupation in 1783/4. One quite > detailed map (for which I have lost the identification, but seen at NYPL) > seems to show the Apalachicola river as the boundary, but as the same map is > quite at variance with others as to the Georgia border around the mouth of > St Mary's River coupled with oddities as to the relation between Cumberland > and Amelia Islands I feel I can't actually rely on it. I look forward to > simple illumination. > > John Weiss > Independent Scholar > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Weiss" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Boundary between E & W Florida, c1814 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:46:20 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I see now that I was not sufficiently alert when doing my early morning searches, and I have now found the answer to my question at: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/british_colonies_1763-76. jpg, which shows the Apalachicola river as the relevant boundary. John Weiss _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Weiss" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Boundary between E & W Florida, c1814 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:55:41 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Tim Your Guthrie map is even more useful than the one I found at the University of Texas website, as it's dated 1809 and thus closer to the time that interests me, confirming the continued division between East and West Florida, with the boundary on the Apalachicola river - many thanks. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Williams" To: "Maphist" Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] Boundary between E & W Florida, c1814 : John : I've made a link to a jpeg I constructed this morning with two : resources if it might be of use: : http://home1.gte.net/jundo/pics/maphist.jpg : : Tim : : : Tim Williams Maps & Prints : 1405 E Walnut St. : Columbia MO 65201 : .................................................................... : Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. : I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass, : the world is too full to talk about. Ideas, language, even : the phrase 'each other' doesn't make any sense. -Rumi : ................................................. : : On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, John Weiss wrote: : : > I hope someone can either help me from memory or point me towards a suitable : > online map resource - I need to know the boundary between East and West : > Florida at the time of the War of 1812. From : > http://dhr.dos.state.fl.us/flafacts/shorthis.html#british it appears that it : > was the British that made the division, though another site says the British : > occupied only East Florida, but I'm not clear as to whether the Spanish : > retained an administrative division on re-occupation in 1783/4. One quite : > detailed map (for which I have lost the identification, but seen at NYPL) : > seems to show the Apalachicola river as the boundary, but as the same map is : > quite at variance with others as to the Georgia border around the mouth of : > St Mary's River coupled with oddities as to the relation between Cumberland : > and Amelia Islands I feel I can't actually rely on it. I look forward to : > simple illumination. : > : > John Weiss : > Independent Scholar : > : > _______________________________________________________________ : > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography : > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht : > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl : > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl : > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl : > : : _______________________________________________________________ : MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography : hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht : List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl : List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl : List Information: http://www.maphist.nl : _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:45:23 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] identifying early map makers Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [Matthew Edney ] -- This, and the following messages, were bounced to me by the Majordomo because of several reasons, during my vacation. Peter -- Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 16:47:15 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Matthew Edney Subject: identifying early map makers Dear All: I'd like to thank several listmembers --- Rod M. Barron; Louis Cardinal; Barbara McCorkle; and Don Mcguirk --- for their quick response to my plea for help! The communal consensus is that the two geographers cited by Robert Morden in his Geography Rectified (1680) were 1) the "Nubian geographer" was Al-Idrisi (1099-1164), whose work was known to early modern Europe as the "Geographia Nubiensis" 2) "Maginus" was Giovanni Antonio Magini (1555-1617) Thanks again! Matthew Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:46:34 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: Re: [MapHist] Map ties Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 20:08:28 -0500 From: "Duane F. Marble" Organization: OSU Center for Mapping To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Map ties Some years ago Waldo Tobler designed the "real Robinson projection" in the form of a bow tie for, I believe, his retirement party. -- Dr. Duane F. Marble Professor Emeritus of Geography Telephone: 614-292-4419 Center for Mapping Fax: 614-292-8062 The Ohio State University 1216 Kinnear Email: marble.1@osu.edu Columbus, Ohio 43212 "Two important characteristics of maps should be noticed. A map is not the territory it represents, but, if correct, it has a similar structure to the territory, which accounts for its usefulness. . . . " (pg. 58) - Alfred Korbzybski in Science and Sanity, (1933, 1950) Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:47:55 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: Re: [MapHist] identifying early map makers Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [K Pinto ] Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 01:18:43 -0700 (MST) From: K Pinto To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] identifying early map makers It would not be wise to rely upon the information on this website--at least not for Islamic mapping. A great deal of the information is out of date and confused. The author has thrown together a hodge podge of images from different manuscripts often with seriously incorrect dates. For instance, he dates the famous world map from the Leiden ms. (see HoC 2.1, plate 7) as 977/1570 A.D. This is an atrocious mistake. The ms. is generally dated to 569 A.H. (after Hijra--i.e. the Muslim calendar)/ 1173 A.D. (I have redated this to 1193 A.D.) In other words the date given on this website for this map is approx. four centuries off! I puzzled over this for a while and decided that the author of the website somehow got Ibn Hawqal confused for al-Istakhri. Thus he took Ibn Hawqal's death date of ca. 367 A.H./ 977 A.D. and attached it to the Leiden map. He further misunderstood the date by taking the already converted Christian calendar date and reconverted it! Hence arriving at the completely false date of 1570! Quite amazing. Other mistakes among numerous others include the citing of al-Kashgari as an Arab when in fact he was Turkish. I teach my students not to rely completely on web based material. At least not yet. In general I find that web based content can be quite misleading unless the page is put up by a reliable source. If someone needs reasonably up-to-date, accurate info. on Islamic mapping, HoC 2.1 is still the source to go to. Approach this site with extreme caution! Sincerely, Karen Pinto On Sat, 9 Mar 2002, Joel Kovarsky wrote: > Regarding Al-Idrisi, see: > > Included at this site is the statement: > > "...and the authoritative geographical knowledge of the Western world was > destined to develop unenriched by the treasures which Roger and Idrisi > together had amassed. The first translation known of Idrisi's work was > published in Rome only in 1619, and then in a very much shortened form (the > translator did not even known the author's name). While in the world maps > of Marino Sanudo and Pietro Vesconte we find Idrisi's influence very > apparent here and there (Slide #228), and although his record of the > Deceived Men of Lisbon and their explorations in the Western Ocean may have > had a certain effect in stimulating the later Atlantic enterprises of > Christian mariners, the Geography of Idrisi never seems to have become a > European textbook." > > > Joel Kovarsky > > > At 04:43 PM 3/6/02 +0100, you wrote: > >the "Nubian geographer" refers to the "Geographia Nubiensis", the work of > >the 11th Century Arab cartographer, Al-Idrisi (1099-1164), whose work was > >first translated into French in Paris in 1619 and was used (amongst others) > >by Nicolas Sanson as one of the sources for his 1654 folio map of Arabia : > >"Carte des Trois Arabies".... > Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:50:00 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: Re: [MapHist] Map collecting - a hobby or an investment? Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [Order Dept ] Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 22:56:00 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Order Dept Subject: Re: [MapHist] Map collecting - a hobby or an investment? Entertaining Mark, but don't you think you sample group is a bit small? I would commend you to the analysis Bill Reese did at the beginning of his Streeter Revisited catalogue. Just out of curiosity, since when was a 4 to 6% ROI so bad? Beats the hell out of a lot of current yields...especially if you bought Telecom in 1999. At 07:22 PM 3/11/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Maphisters, > >On March 27, 2002 Christie's in New York will auction off the original >manuscript map of the Mason-Dixon survey. It is included as Lot No. 4 in >the FORBES COLLECTION OF AMERICAN DOCUMENTS, Sale No. 1032. The estimate >is $800K - $1.2M. The manuscript map is entitled 'A Plan of the West Line >or Parallel of Latitude which is the Boundary between the Provinces of >Maryland and Pensylvania,' and it is signed by the surveyors 'Cha: Mason' >and 'Jere: Dixon' in ink below the decorative cartouche, [drawn in >Philadelphia, 26 December 1767-29 February 1768]. You can see a picture of >this map and the complete (very detailed; excellent reference!) catalogue >description (prepared by Chris Coover, Christie's Senior Specialist) at >the URL provided here at end. > etc. Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:51:02 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: RE: [MapHist] Philadelphia Meridian Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["Boardman, Richard" ] From: "Boardman, Richard" To: "'maphist@geog.uu.nl'" Subject: RE: [MapHist] Philadelphia Meridian Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:21:30 -0500 Given the coordinates of 75 08 55 for the Philadelphia Meridian, it traversed Chestnut Street between 4th and 5th Streets. That would have put it right through the Second Bank of the United States. Rich Boardman Map Coll. Free Library of Philadelphia boardmanr@library.phila.gov > -----Original Message----- > From: Harold Cramer [SMTP:cramerhj@bellatlantic.net] > Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 9:48 AM > To: Boardman, Richard > Subject: [MapHist] Philadelphia Meridian > > Hello: > > The Philadelphia Meridian appears on many old US maps. What was the > precise > defining location for this meridian? My guess is the intersection of Broad > and Market streets. > > Also, what was the precise defining location for the Washington meridian? > My > guess there is the capitol. > > Yours truly, > Harold Cramer > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:57:06 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] Re: International Antiquarian Map-Dealers Association Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [Manasekinc@aol.com] From: Manasekinc@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:56:23 EST Subject: Re: International Antiquarian Map-Dealers Association CC: maphist@geog.uu.nl Nice ring to IAMA - but it raises the queston IAMA what? Good thing it's not the European Regional Map Mavens (EURMAMA) Frank Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:58:37 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] New catalogue from Almagre Books Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [wwroth@kiva.net] -- Is this too commercial or not? Peter Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:56:52 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: New catalogue from Almagre Books We are about to issue Catalogue 19 - Americana. In addition to historical works and bibliographies, there are many maps included (18th - 20th centuries), cartographic reference books, and numerous books and pamphlets with folding maps. We would be happy to send a copy to anyone not already on our mailing list. If outside the U. S. please send us $4.00 for mailing. Almagre Books 4615 Cranbrook Road Bloomington, IN 47401 USA Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 17:00:44 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] BOUNCE maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl: Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["Mira Miletic" ] From: "Mira Miletic" To: Subject: Fw: Isolarii Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:04:23 +0100 Dubrovnik Museums Maritime museum Dubrovnik Croatia The Maritime Museum of Dubrovnik decided to collect documentation, the = photocopies or photographs of the Isolarii from 16th and the beginning = of 17th century which contain the copperplate engravings with maps and = views from the Croatian Eastern Adriatic coast (that Isolarii usually = review the geographical charts and views of towns from Venice to = Constantinopoli across the Eastern Adriatic coast, Albanian coast and = the Greek islands). We intend to write an article about them. =20 According to the bibliography (R. Almagia, F. Borroni Salvadori, R. = Gallo, F. Bachman) we know for the isolario "Civitatum aliquot = insignor(um) et locor(um), magis munitor, exacta delineatio: Cum = additione aliquot Insularum principalium, Disegni di alcune piu illustri = citta et fortezze del mondo con aggiunta di alcune Isole principali, = Venetiis MDLXLVII (1568) Fernando Bertelli formis". In this addition of Isolar, according to F. Bachmann, Die Alten = stadtebilder, Stuttgart, 1965, the Fernando Bertelli=B4s Isloario = consists of print views and maps of eastern Adriatic coastal cities: = Clissa, Dulcigno, Durazzo, ragusa, Scardona, Sebenico, Spalato, Trau, = Zara (as well as maps of the Greak coast and islands). We have to point out that the Fernando Bertelli`s Isolar edition from = 1568. differs from the adition of Donato Bertelli`s Isolar which was = published under the same title in 1574. (Biblioteca Marciana posseses = the sample of this Isolar) The same F. Bachmann also mentions the Isolario: Domenico Zenoi, = Civitatum aliquot insignorum et locorum munimentorum delineato. Venetiis = 1573. with the copperplate engravings of the following places: Cattaro, = Dulcigno, Durazzo, Ragusa, Scutari, Sebenico, Zara. We also try to find the addition of the book Relation Journaliere du = voyage du Levant faict et descript par Haut et puissant Seigneur Henry = de Beauvau... Nancy 1615. We have to point also (according to the = bibliography) that the older addition of the book from 1608. had not the = copper engravings, but the addition from 1615. have some from the = Eastern Adriatic coast. If you are in possesion of these three books, and if they contain the = maps and views mentioned above, we would kindly request you to inform us = about the price and the mode of payment for the copies. If you do not have the samples, would you be so kind to give us advice = which Library could have it. If this e mail reaches the wrong department of your Library would you = please procede it to the right one. Yours sincerely, Anica Kisi=E6, Mr.sc. The main Curator Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 17:05:51 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: List-owner MapHist Subject: [MapHist] Desliens world map Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 This message was bounced to me because Rodney used an 'illegal' word in the first line (uns*bscribed, with the * filled in). Peter From: "Rodney Shirley" To: Subject: Desliens world map Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:11:58 -0000 For some reason I found myself `uns*bscribed' from the old maphist and, with Peter v d Krogt's help, have only just got s*bscribed again. Looking through the February archives I noted a message from Derek Hayes about the `lost' Desliens world map.. Yes, indeed, the original 1541 manuscript chart seems to have resurrected itself. When IMCoS were in Dresden in 1999 (amongst many really rare cartographic treasures at the Saxony State Archives and the State & University Library) I saw the Desliens map, and wondered if it was genuine as I knew there'd been a facsimile in 1903 or so. Then when I got back home (England) I checked up and wrote specifically to the Curator who replied and said that it was assuredly the original which (with other items--I didn't go into these) were hidden away safely during the war. It's fairly rare to come come across maps which were supposed to have been lost, or destroyed as there was quite a long sad list `By Fire & Sword' in post-war Imago Mundi publications. Incidentally, if you belong to IMCoS their visit to Dresden and this incident is written up in the IMCoS Journal for Autumn 1999. Rodney Shirley rws@dial.pipex.com Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "George S. Carhart" Organization: University of Southern Maine To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:42:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [MapHist] Boundary between E & W Florida, c1814 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 0100,0100,0100John you may find some useful information on your subject on our web site dealing with our copy of the Mitchell Red Line map. www.usm.maine.edu/maps/mitchell George Carhart On 16 Mar 2002, at 14:55, John Weiss < wrote: 7F00,0000,0000> Tim > > Your Guthrie map is even more useful than the one I found at the > University of Texas website, as it's dated 1809 and thus closer to the > time that interests me, confirming the continued division between East > and West Florida, with the boundary on the Apalachicola river - many > thanks. > > John > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim Williams" < > To: "Maphist" < > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 2:27 PM > Subject: Re: [MapHist] Boundary between E & W Florida, c1814 > > > : John > : I've made a link to a jpeg I constructed this morning with two > : resources if it might be of use: > : http://home1.gte.net/jundo/pics/maphist.jpg > : > : Tim > : > : > : Tim Williams Maps & Prints > : 1405 E Walnut St. > : Columbia MO 65201 > : .................................................................... > : Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. : > I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass, : the > world is too full to talk about. Ideas, language, even : the phrase > 'each other' doesn't make any sense. -Rumi : > ................................................. : : On Sat, 16 Mar > 2002, John Weiss wrote: : : > I hope someone can either help me from > memory or point me towards a suitable : > online map resource - I need > to know the boundary between East and West : > Florida at the time of > the War of 1812. From : > > http://dhr.dos.state.fl.us/flafacts/shorthis.html#british it appears > that it : > was the British that made the division, though another > site says the British : > occupied only East Florida, but I'm not > clear as to whether the Spanish : > retained an administrative > division on re-occupation in 1783/4. One quite : > detailed map (for > which I have lost the identification, but seen at NYPL) : > seems to > show the Apalachicola river as the boundary, but as the same map is : > > quite at variance with others as to the Georgia border around the > mouth of : > St Mary's River coupled with oddities as to the relation > between Cumberland : > and Amelia Islands I feel I can't actually rely > on it. I look forward to : > simple illumination. : > : > John Weiss : > > Independent Scholar : > : > > _______________________________________________________________ : > > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography : > > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > : > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl : > List-owner's e-mail: > owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl : > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl : > > : : _______________________________________________________________ > : MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography : > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > : List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl : List-owner's e-mail: > owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl : List Information: http://www.maphist.nl : > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: > owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl George S. Carhart Cartographic Associate Osher Map Library Smith Center for Cartographic Education University of Southern Maine P.O. Box 9301 Portland, Maine 04104-9301 USA (207) 780-4910 gcarhart@usm.maine.edu _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 17:52:28 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: [MapHist] Testing, sorry -- 2 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Sorry about this test (these tests). For installing the maphist-digest properly some tests are necessary. Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:23:17 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Map collecting - a hobby or an investment? To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 256 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 3/16/2002 11:26:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl writes:


Entertaining Mark, but don't you think you sample group is a bit small?


Good point.

I would commend you to the analysis Bill Reese did at the beginning of his
Streeter Revisited catalogue.

Great, but more applicable to general Americana than maps.

Just out of curiosity, since when was a 4 to 6% ROI so bad?

Since 1982.

   Beats the hell

out of a lot of current yields...especially if you bought Telecom in 1999
.

Certainly true - for these who held on; absolutely untrue - for these who sold early in 2000
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "John Weiss" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Boundary between E & W Florida, c1814 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 19:53:12 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The whole subject of the Mitchell Red Line map looks fascinating - the concealment of maps is presumably not uncommon when so much is at stake. Although even at the largest scale the lettering is hard to read, the map confirms the Apalachicola as the boundary between the two part of Florida. Thanks. John Weiss ----- Original Message ----- From: "George S. Carhart" To: Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] Boundary between E & W Florida, c1814 : John : you may find some useful information on your subject on our web site dealing with our copy of the Mitchell Red Line map. www.usm.maine.edu/maps/mitchell : : George Carhart : : On 16 Mar 2002, at 14:55, John Weiss wrote: : : > Tim : > : > Your Guthrie map is even more useful than the one I found at the : > University of Texas website, as it's dated 1809 and thus closer to the : > time that interests me, confirming the continued division between East : > and West Florida, with the boundary on the Apalachicola river - many : > thanks. : > : > John : > : > ----- Original Message ----- : > From: "Tim Williams" : > To: "Maphist" : > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 2:27 PM : > Subject: Re: [MapHist] Boundary between E & W Florida, c1814 : > : > : > : John : > : I've made a link to a jpeg I constructed this morning with two : > : resources if it might be of use: : > : http://home1.gte.net/jundo/pics/maphist.jpg : > : : > : Tim : > : : > : : > : Tim Williams Maps & Prints : > : 1405 E Walnut St. : > : Columbia MO 65201 : > : .................................................................... : > : Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. : : > I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass, : the : > world is too full to talk about. Ideas, language, even : the phrase : > 'each other' doesn't make any sense. -Rumi : : > ................................................. : : On Sat, 16 Mar : > 2002, John Weiss wrote: : : > I hope someone can either help me from : > memory or point me towards a suitable : > online map resource - I need : > to know the boundary between East and West : > Florida at the time of : > the War of 1812. From : > : > http://dhr.dos.state.fl.us/flafacts/shorthis.html#british it appears : > that it : > was the British that made the division, though another : > site says the British : > occupied only East Florida, but I'm not : > clear as to whether the Spanish : > retained an administrative : > division on re-occupation in 1783/4. One quite : > detailed map (for : > which I have lost the identification, but seen at NYPL) : > seems to : > show the Apalachicola river as the boundary, but as the same map is : : > > quite at variance with others as to the Georgia border around the : > mouth of : > St Mary's River coupled with oddities as to the relation : > between Cumberland : > and Amelia Islands I feel I can't actually rely : > on it. I look forward to : > simple illumination. : > : > John Weiss : : > > Independent Scholar : > : > : > _______________________________________________________________ : > : > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography : > : > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht : > : > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl : > List-owner's e-mail: : > owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl : > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl : : > > : : _______________________________________________________________ : > : MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography : : > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht : > : List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl : List-owner's e-mail: : > owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl : List Information: http://www.maphist.nl : : > : > _______________________________________________________________ : > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography : > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht : > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: : > owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl : : : : George S. Carhart : Cartographic Associate : Osher Map Library : Smith Center for Cartographic Education : University of Southern Maine : P.O. Box 9301 : Portland, Maine 04104-9301 : USA : (207) 780-4910 : gcarhart@usm.maine.edu : _______________________________________________________________ : MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography : hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht : List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl : List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl : List Information: http://www.maphist.nl : : _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: blr@raremaps.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 11:55:33 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Barry Ruderman Subject: Re: [MapHist] New catalogue from Almagre Books Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 A vote for this announcement beeing acceptable At 04:58 PM 3/16/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Non-member submission from [wwroth@kiva.net] -- Is this too commercial >or not? Peter > >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:56:52 -0500 >To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >Subject: New catalogue from Almagre Books > >We are about to issue Catalogue 19 - Americana. In addition to >historical works and bibliographies, there are many maps included (18th >- 20th centuries), cartographic reference books, and numerous books and >pamphlets with folding maps. > >We would be happy to send a copy to anyone not already on our mailing >list. If outside the U. S. please send us $4.00 for mailing. > >Almagre Books >4615 Cranbrook Road >Bloomington, IN 47401 USA > > >Peter van der Krogt >List-owner MapHist > >List-info: http://www.maphist.nl > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht >List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl >List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: blr@raremaps.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:16:24 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Barry Ruderman Subject: Re: [MapHist] New catalogue from Almagre Books Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Although perhaps my speelling leaves something to be desired. At 11:55 AM 3/16/2002 -0800, you wrote: >A vote for this announcement beeing acceptable > >At 04:58 PM 3/16/2002 +0100, you wrote: >>Non-member submission from [wwroth@kiva.net] -- Is this too commercial >>or not? Peter >> >>Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:56:52 -0500 >>To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >>Subject: New catalogue from Almagre Books >> >>We are about to issue Catalogue 19 - Americana. In addition to >>historical works and bibliographies, there are many maps included (18th >>- 20th centuries), cartographic reference books, and numerous books and >>pamphlets with folding maps. >> >>We would be happy to send a copy to anyone not already on our mailing >>list. If outside the U. S. please send us $4.00 for mailing. >> >>Almagre Books >>4615 Cranbrook Road >>Bloomington, IN 47401 USA >> >> >>Peter van der Krogt >>List-owner MapHist >> >>List-info: http://www.maphist.nl >> >>_______________________________________________________________ >>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht >>List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl >>List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl >>List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht >List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl >List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 08:00:30 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: [MapHist] al-Idrisi Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Because of the recent comments pertaining to  al-Idrisi on this list (including my ill-chosen link), it seemed reasonable to post the existence of the CD-ROM below. This has been recently issued, and is available through www.chapitre.com.

     Joel Kovarsky

La Géographie d'Idrîsî Un atlas du monde au XIIè siècle
AuteurIDRÎSÎ
Editeur
ThèmeGéographie
Prix Chapitre44 Euros - 288.62 FF - 38.94 $ US

Description
Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France, 2000, Edition électronique, CD Rom Mac-PC, sous coffret cartonné, neuf et encore sous emballage,
"PC : Pentium 166, 32 MO de Ram, affichage 800X600, milliers de couleurs, CD-Rom 8X, Windows 95 ou sup. - Mac : PowerPC 120 Mhz, 27 Mo de Ram dispo, affichage 800X600, milliers de couleurs, CD-Rom 8X, Système 7.5.3 ou sup. Coll. ""Bibliothèque nationale de France/Sources"". "
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 06:22:27 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Lester Subject: [MapHist] I agreee with Baarry To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I agreee with Baarry. It is acceptable (to me) since it is very general, without prices or specifics. Regards to all, Jay L. --- Barry Ruderman wrote: > A vote for this announcement beeing acceptable > > At 04:58 PM 3/16/2002 +0100, you wrote: > >Non-member submission from [wwroth@kiva.net] -- Is this too > commercial > >or not? Peter > > > >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:56:52 -0500 > >To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > >Subject: New catalogue from Almagre Books > > > >We are about to issue Catalogue 19 ... ===== Jay Lester Chapel Hill, NC mapsguy@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: WJWarren@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 13:52:56 EST Subject: [MapHist] RGS lecture To: Maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Notwithstanding Francis Herbert's disclaimer, ABC television news on March 16th in the United States presented a several minute segment covering Gavin Menzies' lecture to the "Royal Geographic Society." His remarks seemed to be enthusiastically received by the audience, a packed house. His theory is that the same Chinese ships which were believed to have visited the east coast of Africa actually proceeded around Africa, across the Atlantic and into the Caribbean, returning by the same route to China. Of course, that beat Columbus to the punch. Perhaps one of those ships used was sunk and apparently is being actively sought. I'm sure Francis will advise us further. ABC News treated it as an enormous breakthrough in the world of exploration, breathlessly supporting the idea. But that's what we expect from TV "news" in the United States. Perhaps Mr. Menzies will stimulate some rational discussion similar to the proposal of Mr. Bawlff that Francis Drake sailed to Alaska. Mercifully, that one seems no longer to be the flavor of the month in journalistic circles. Bill Warren 1109 Linda Glen Drive Pasadena, CA 91105 (626) 792-9152 fax (626) 568-4945 wjwarren@aol.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: dn@pop.pipeline.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:11:23 -0500 To: Maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Deborah Natsios Subject: [MapHist] ny times: wilford on menzies X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id UAA19615 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/17/science/social/17SHIP.html March 17, 2002 Chinese Outdid Columbus, Briton Says By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD Theories about pre-Columbian contacts between the Old World and the New abound, and now a British amateur historian says he has gathered evidence showing that, in a double challenge to accepted history, the Chinese beat Columbus to America by 72 years and also circumnavigated the globe a century before the Magellan voyage. In the early 15th century, China was the world's greatest naval power and Zheng He (pronounced jung huh), a eunuch who was close to the emperor, was its admiral. He led a fleet of huge ships through the Indian Ocean, reaching the east coast of Africa. Scholars think the Chinese could easily have continued around the Cape of Good Hope to Europe and America, if they had stayed their course of exploration. This much is documented. But Gavin Menzies, a retired Royal Navy submarine commander and navigation expert, has taken the story a global step forward. In a lecture before the Royal Geographical Society in London on Friday evening, he backed up his hypothesis with what he said were secret pre- Columbian maps showing results of the Zheng He voyage, ancient Chinese artifacts found far from home and remains of gigantic shipwrecks in Australia and the Caribbean. Mr. Menzies also described how, on his home computer and with a commercial software package called Starry Night, he reconstructed the Chinese celestial navigation system and traced what he thinks is the epic round-the-world voyage of Zheng He from March 1421 to October 1423. The Chinese, he concluded, explored the coasts of Africa, South America and Australia and sailed into the Caribbean and the Sea of Cortez, off what is now Baja California. The presumed circumnavigation, Mr. Menzies argued, was achieved by a fleet of more than 100 ships, several times larger than the European caravels of 1492, that passed through the Indian Ocean, rounded the capes of Africa and South America and then crossed the South Pacific. Some of the ships might even have reached the Antarctic coast. Ferdinand Magellan embarked on Europe's first circumnavigation in 1519, and the surviving ship struggled back to Seville in 1522. >From his 14 years of investigation, Mr. Menzies said he determined that the first European explorers of the New World, including Columbus and Magellan, carried maps derived from Chinese charts that somehow found their way to Venice in 1428 and then to Portugal. Authorities on the history of cartography said this might be the most controversial part of the new theory. But the fact that Mr. Menzies was given a respectful hearing at the venerable geographical society indicated that his ideas were not being dismissed as those of a crank. The audience of diplomats, naval officers, geographers and other scholars raised no immediate objections to the evidence or reasoning. Publishers were also there, in anticipation of a planned auction of rights to a book Mr. Menzies is writing. Mr. Menzies issued 17 pages of what he said was supporting evidence to back his findings. He said there was more evidence but it would not be disclosed until publication of the book. In the meantime, some scholars reacted with polite skepticism. "The burden of proof remains on Menzies' shoulders," said Dr. John R. Hebert, chief of the map division of the Library of Congress, who has not studied the evidence on which the new theory is based. "I have no problem accepting the voyages if Menzies can provide a convincing, well- documented presentation, with sufficient contemporary documents to support the claim." Dr. Gillian Hutchinson, curator of the history of cartography at the National Maritime Museum in England, is not persuaded that a link has been established between Chinese maps and those the Europeans used in their American voyages. "It is possible," she told The Daily Telegraph of London last week, "that Chinese geographical knowledge had reached Europe before the Age of Discovery. But Mr. Menzies is absolutely certain of it, and that makes it difficult to separate evidence from wishful thinking." In the lecture, Mr. Menzies said: "If people disagree with me they have got to come up with an alternative scenario. I say there is none." Adm. Sir John Woodward, who served on submarines with Mr. Menzies in the 1960's, said that he "is not some mad eccentric but a rational man, good at analysis — and he certainly knows all about charts." In his lecture, Mr. Menzies said the primary evidence for his theory stemmed from his chance discovery that in 1428, the Portuguese had a chart of the world showing Africa, Australia, South America and various islands in remarkably accurate detail. For example, the chart clearly showed the Cape of Good Hope, which the Portuguese did not sail around until the end of the 15th century. He said the secret chart was the progenitor of several European maps in the later 15th century and in the early 16th century. Mr. Menzies explained that the map was evidently based on documents that had been spirited out of China by the Venetian merchant and explorer Nicolo da Conti, who supposedly sailed with Admiral Zheng on part of one voyage. Da Conti is well known to historians as a source of knowledge about China in the 15th century. Through research in Venice, Spain and Portugal, Mr. Menzies said that he found some of these early maps and also determined how the Chinese explorers were able to measure latitude and estimate longitude in the Southern Hemisphere, using Canopus as the guide star in place of Polaris, the North Star. Mr. Menzies noted that the old maps "refer not to the world as it is today, but as it was five centuries ago, when sea levels and the apparent position of the stars were different." Using the program Starry Night, he recreated the star positions of that time. Then, to try to "anchor" the stars to the old maps, he drew a perpendicular line from a star in the Southern Cross to Deception Island off the tip of South America. "The maps suddenly line up with current coastlines to an uncanny degree," he said, showing the Chinese must have gotten that far west and south. Mr. Menzies also described nine wrecked Chinese ships that he said had been detected in the Caribbean Sea, which he said were further evidence of global voyaging by the Chinese fleet. He would not disclose their whereabouts. Scholars noted that the Caribbean has been thoroughly explored by undersea archaeologists and treasure hunters, and it seemed unlikely that such large wrecks would have been overlooked. The most current histories of cartography have no references to Zheng He voyages beyond the east coast of Africa. In any event, after the admiral returned to China in 1423, political upheaval cost the emperor his throne. Conservative Confucian mandarins took over and turned the country inward. World discovery became a European enterprise. Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Al Magary" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] RGS lecture Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:17:46 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 > His theory is that > the same Chinese ships which were believed to have visited the east coast of > Africa actually proceeded around Africa, across the Atlantic and into the > Caribbean, returning by the same route to China. Of course, that beat > Columbus to the punch. None of these possible early discoveries of America were worth anything if they weren't publicized and no one did anything with them. The European discovery of America is the one that made its mark in history. Other historical discoveries of the New World are largely ones that current researchers have been uncovering. While they are fascinating additions to the history of exploration, they shouldn't cause anyone to rewrite general histories. IMHO, Al Magary _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:33:59 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] RGS lecture To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 256 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 3/17/2002 3:28:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, al@magary.com writes:


None of these possible early discoveries of America were worth anything if
they weren't publicized and no one did anything with them.  The European
discovery of America is the one that made its mark in history. 

Hear, hear! But to be more precise - the Columbus discovery rather than the general "European discovery", since the Vikings were here a few hundred years before him (and retreated with no impact on this continent). Mark X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Keith Pickering" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] ny times: wilford on menzies Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:01:37 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >Using the program Starry Night, he recreated the star positions of that >time. Then, to try to "anchor" the stars to the old maps, he drew a >perpendicular line from a star in the Southern Cross to Deception Island off >the tip of South America. "The maps suddenly line up with current coastlines >to an uncanny degree," he said, showing the Chinese must have gotten that >far west and south. How, exactly, does one draw a line from Deception Island (on the earth) to the Southern Cross (in the sky)? Either Mr. Menzies doesn't know what he's talking about, or Mr. Wilford has garbled the meaning rather badly. Knowing Mr. Wilford's work, I suspect the former. Keith Pickering _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:38:36 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] RGS lecture Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Re: [MapHist] RGS lecture
As usual with these exciting discoveries, why did China conceal the evidence?  Certainly the African trade is no secret.
        BTW, don't know if the group knows, but the Bwalf theory that Drake made it to Alaska is definitely discredited. Two facts have emerged: the man with the discovery plaque is known as the Joker of Petersburg, and a ship's pilot with 25 years of experience in bringing the big cruise ships to Alaska every summer states that the ships of Drake's day simply could not have made the journey in the time allotted, even given every possible break in the weather. The pilot is also a fine maritime historian.
        At least Bwalf had a plausible reason for secrecy on the part of Drake.
        Dee the skeptic
None of these possible early discoveries of America were worth anything if
they weren't publicized and no one did anything with them.  The European
discovery of America is the one that made its mark in history.

Hear, hear! But to be more precise - the Columbus discovery rather than the general "European discovery", since the Vikings were here a few hundred years before him (and retreated with no impact on this continent). Mark

--
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 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:56:21 +1200 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] RGS lecture To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Al Magary stated > None of these possible early discoveries of America were worth anything if > they weren't publicized and no one did anything with them. The European > discovery of America is the one that made its mark in history. Other > historical discoveries of the New World are largely ones that current > researchers have been uncovering. While they are fascinating additions to > the history of exploration, they shouldn't cause anyone to rewrite general > histories. > > IMHO, > Al Magary This statement raises, IMHO, a number of serious concerns: 1) The discoveries, if they happened, might not mean anything to Mr. Magary, but they probably did to the Chinese, and the people on the coasts the expedition(s) supposedly touched. Forgive me, but that is like claiming the September 11 Twin Towers catastrophe means nothing because you don't live in New York, or the USA. The nonsense of such a claim is self evident. 2) Mr. Magary's statement is truly Eurocentric...to the degree that what happened in the rest of the world is of no importance whatsoever. The Polynesians did not discover any of the Pacific of course...only Europeans did. 3) Perhaps the only reason "The European discovery of America is the one that made its mark in history" is because the only history Mr Magary knows about is the very limited, very late exploration by Europeans. Never mind that the whole world had been explored by other people before the Europeans even learnt to sail. 4) May I remind Mr Magary of the old saying "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Michael Ross _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:12:54 +1200 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] RGS lecture To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Re: [MapHist] RGS lecture
Dee Longenbaugh wrote
 
> As usual with these exciting discoveries, why did China conceal the evidence?  Certainly the African trade is no secret.

What evidence is there that the Chinese concealed anything? How many of us can read any Chinese documents? How many have been to China to look at the documents that are available? And looked for documents that haven't even been catalogued?

Isn't this statement the same as me claiming the USA is concealing its financial expenditure because I haven't read the Federal Government's  reports....or better still, that there is no evidence that Columbus actually reached the America's because I haven't read the myriad of books on the subject?

It would appear none of us have actually heard what Mr. Menzies has to say...yet we are so quick to dismiss him on the basis of a couple of news reports.

Makes me wonder how we manage to make any progress at all.

Michael Ross

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 01:19:34 +0100 From: "R.H. van Gent" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] ny times: wilford on menzies Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 > Through research in Venice, Spain and Portugal, Mr. Menzies said that he > found some of these early maps and also determined how the Chinese explorers > were able to measure latitude and estimate longitude in the Southern > Hemisphere, using Canopus as the guide star in place of Polaris, the North Star. I would be interested in learning how mr. Menzies thinks that the Chinese could measure latitudes with the help of Canopus, a star that even around 1400 was nowhere near to the southern celestial pole. And estimating longitudes with the aid of a bright star alone must indeed be a lost art, because, as far I know, no one since has been able to devise such a method. Regards, ======================================================= * Robert H. van Gent * * E-mail: r.h.vangent@astro.uu.nl * * Homepage: http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/homepage.htm * ======================================================= _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 20:26:17 -0500 From: Bert Johnson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] RGS lecture Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Some are indeed too quick to dismiss, and some are too eager to believe.  Skepticism (not cynicism) is not inappropriate when startling new break-throughs are claimed.  It is part of the scientific process.  Whereas research can proceed on faith, results require evidence.  Mr. Menzies knows what sort of case should be built for his claims.  Perhaps this lecture was the first step of many to come.

As for the notion that "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," neither can it substantiate a four year old's claim that there is a blue hippopotamus in the upstairs bath that ducks down the plug-hole when anyone comes in to check.  It is true that new ideas are often too quickly dismissed, but claims of secret evidence tend to make one skeptical.

"Mr. Menzies also described nine wrecked Chinese ships that he said had been detected in the Caribbean Sea, which he said were further evidence of global voyaging by the Chinese fleet. He would not disclose their whereabouts."

Perhaps more detailed reporting will make it clear that this was taken out of context, but until then, we wait, appropriately skeptically, to hear of them.

Michael Ross wrote:

Dee Longenbaugh wrote 
> As usual with these exciting discoveries, why did China conceal the evidence?  Certainly the African trade is no secret.
What evidence is there that the Chinese concealed anything? How many of us can read any Chinese documents? How many have been to China to look at the documents that are available? And looked for documents that haven't even been catalogued? 

Isn't this statement the same as me claiming the USA is concealing its financial expenditure because I haven't read the Federal Government's  reports....or better still, that there is no evidence that Columbus actually reached the America's because I haven't read the myriad of books on the subject?

It would appear none of us have actually heard what Mr. Menzies has to say...yet we are so quick to dismiss him on the basis of a couple of news reports.

Makes me wonder how we manage to make any progress at all.

Michael Ross

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 21:15:36 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [MapHist] RGS lecture Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The whole notion of argument by assertion or argument from ignorance gets quite complex, although it does appear that the lecture in question was general enough to leave many holes and irritations. As to just how complex the notion of proof can get, see:

Richard H. Gaskins: burdens of proof in modern discourse. Yale University Press, 1992 (the author did not capitalize the title)

     Joel Kovarsky


 It is true that new ideas are often too quickly dismissed, but claims of secret evidence tend to make one skeptical.

"Mr. Menzies also described nine wrecked Chinese ships that he said had been detected in the Caribbean Sea, which he said were further evidence of global voyaging by the Chinese fleet. He would not disclose their whereabouts."

Perhaps more detailed reporting will make it clear that this was taken out of context, but until then, we wait, appropriately skeptically, to hear of them.

Michael Ross wrote:
Dee Longenbaugh wrote 
> As usual with these exciting discoveries, why did China conceal the evidence?  Certainly the African trade is no secret.
What evidence is there that the Chinese concealed anything? How many of us can read any Chinese documents? How many have been to China to look at the documents that are available? And looked for documents that haven't even been catalogued?
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 17:23:00 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: RE: [MapHist] RGS lecture Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 RE: [MapHist] RGS lecture
Mr. Ross,
        I'm afraid you misunderstood my post. Sorry for my careless writing. I meant that since China made no secret of its trade with Africa, why would it conceal a visit to the Caribbean? (Sarcasm is hard to do in e-mail.)
        Dee

 
> As usual with these exciting discoveries, why did China conceal the evidence?  Certainly the African trade is no secret.
What evidence is there that the Chinese concealed anything? How many of us can read any Chinese documents? How many have been to China to look at the documents that are available? And looked for documents that haven't even been catalogued?
Isn't this statement the same as me claiming the USA is concealing its financial expenditure because I haven't read the Federal Government's  reports....or better still, that there is no evidence that Columbus actually reached the America's because I haven't read the myriad of books on the subject?
--
The Observatory, ABAA
200 North Franklin
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone 907/586-9676
Fax 907/586-9606
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 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 22:15:33 -0500 From: Doug McIlroy To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] RGS lecture Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Mr Menzies vindicates Columbus. He called his landfall the Indies to hide the fact that he had a Chinese map. And he didn't misestimate the width of the ocean. He went back again and again hoping to salvage treasure from the Chinese wrecks that only he knew about, with El Dorado as a cover story. Given such clear evidence it's amazing nobody figured it out before. Doug McIlroy _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:55:10 +1200 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] RGS lecture To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 RE: [MapHist] RGS lecture
Dee Longenbaugh wrote:
 
I'm afraid you misunderstood my post. Sorry for my careless writing. I meant that since China made no secret of its trade with Africa, why would it conceal a visit to the Caribbean? (Sarcasm is hard to do in e-mail.)
Dee

 
> As usual with these exciting discoveries, why did China conceal the evidence?  Certainly the African trade is no secret.
What evidence is there that the Chinese concealed anything? How many of us can read any Chinese documents? How many have been to China to look at the documents that are available? And looked for documents that haven't even been catalogued?
Isn't this statement the same as me claiming the USA is concealing its financial expenditure because I haven't read the Federal Government's  reports....or better still, that there is no evidence that Columbus actually reached the America's because I haven't read the myriad of books on the subject? 
  
 
Thank you for your explanation. I had two concerns:
 
1) It was not the Chinese who were alleged to have concealed something...it was Mr. Menzies (according to the reporter).

"Mr. Menzies also described nine wrecked Chinese ships that he said had been detected in the Caribbean Sea, which he said were further evidence of global voyaging by the Chinese fleet. He would not disclose their whereabouts."
 
And it is possible that he has found something, but doesn't yet have enough hard evidence to reveal all. If that were the case I can quite understand his reluctance to disclose the location.
 
2) While we may have knowledge of some of the Chinese trade with Africa, that doesn't preclude the reality of exploration of say the Pacific, whether it involved trade or not. The Dutch kept secret a lot of their exploration of the Pacific until they were ready, and we have only found out through third party research well after the event. In fact a large portion of the VOC files have yet to be examined in detail, so we do not even know what the VOC knew. And the Spanish and Portuguese secrecy is well known And they were all European!
 
Does anyone have access to a transcript of the address? Should we not invite Mr Menzies to discuss his claims with us?
 
Regards
Michael
 
 
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:55:14 +1200 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] RGS lecture To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Bert Johnson wrote:
> Some are indeed too quick to dismiss, and some are too eager to believe.  Skepticism (not cynicism) is not inappropriate when
> startling new break-throughs are claimed.  It is part of the scientific process.  Whereas research can proceed on faith, results
> require evidence.  Mr. Menzies knows what sort of case should be built for his claims.  Perhaps this lecture was the first step of
> many to come.
 
Absolutely! Evidence is what is needed...yet we are already judging Mr Menzies without so much as a copy of his presentation to go on. Since when did we rely on the daily media to provide hard evidence of reality?
 
> As for the notion that "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," neither can it substantiate a four year old's claim that
> there is a blue hippopotamus in the upstairs bath that ducks down the plug-hole when anyone comes in to check.  It is true that
> new ideas are often too quickly dismissed, but claims of secret evidence tend to make one skeptical.

> "Mr. Menzies also described nine wrecked Chinese ships that he said had been detected in the Caribbean Sea, which he said
> were further evidence of global voyaging by the Chinese fleet. He would not disclose their whereabouts."

What "secret evidence"? Sounds suspiciously like we are writing the headlines for the tabloids, not dealing in hard facts...he declined to tell a reporter where the claimed wrecks were. That is hardly in the same league.

And to use a less contrived example relating to the "notion", do we not find people guilty of murder despite there being no body?

Michael
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Al Magary" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] RGS lecture Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 22:41:48 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Michael Ross wrote: > 1) The discoveries, if they happened, might not mean anything to Mr. Magary, > but they probably did to the Chinese, and the people on the coasts the > expedition(s) supposedly touched. "Probably" meant something to the Chinese and the coastal people of Whereverland? Where is any non-theological evidence that a Chinese adventure in the Caribbean happened in the first place, or if it happened, was anything more than a local, transitory experience for both sides? Eg, did the Chinese colonize two entire continents and, for example, institute a worldwide system based on enslaving native peoples? Apparently not. Local, transitory events, if real, are found in antiquarian works, not histories. > Forgive me, but that is like claiming the > September 11 Twin Towers catastrophe means nothing because you don't live in > New York, or the USA. The nonsense of such a claim is self evident. Actually, I do live in the U.S.A., on the left coast. You'd be surprised how out-of-it many Americans are who aren't on the East Coast or in the associated "anthrax zone," which extended south to Florida and, I recall, west to Indiana. Our big thing was a scare involving the Golden Gate Bridge, which Republicans said was our Democratic governor's ignorant misunderstanding or attempt to exploit a catastrophe. The longterm effect of September 11 is obviously still be to be felt as we have just now passed the six-month observance. IMHO the U.S. cannot long sustain either the present intensity of the war on terrorism (especially as it becomes more diffuse in location and aims--Georgia, Philippines, Yemen, Colombia...) or the level of "homeland" security and suppression of civil liberties. Vietnam showed our impatience with long, ugly wars; Somalia (the Black Hawk Down incident) showed we do cut our losses and run; the slaughter along the Basra road in 1991 showed that even our most bloodyminded hawks get cold feet at the wrong time; our persistently low level of foreign aid shows we will cut our aid to places like Afghanistan just as quickly as we can; the two- and four-year cycle of congressional and presidential elections shows that congresses and presidents have foreign policies that wax and wane as predictably as the moon. > 2) Mr. Magary's statement is truly Eurocentric...to the degree that what > happened in the rest of the world is of no importance whatsoever. I made a statement only about what I call the European discovery of America. I did not say it was the first discovery, only Europe's, and that it had an impact that is still felt more than 500 years later, at least in the U.S. So I cannot see that it can be anything but "Eurocentric," if you want to call it that. If the Chinese had "discovered" the New World in the same fashion, I suppose I would be citing "the Chinese discovery of America" with similar objectivity. As it happens, I am among a minority of Americans that believes what happens in the rest of the world is far more important than we realize. Americans for all their wealth and technological sophistication are among the most provincial people in the world. > The > Polynesians did not discover any of the Pacific of course...only Europeans > did. Did I say that? You're assigning an opinion to me that I neither expressed nor believe in. > 3) Perhaps the only reason "The European discovery of America is the one > that made its mark in history" is because the only history Mr Magary knows > about is the very limited, very late exploration by Europeans. Never mind > that the whole world had been explored by other people before the Europeans > even learnt to sail. America was originally peopled from Asia and, perhaps and to a lesser degree, from Polynesia. The second wave of peopling, largely from Europe until the 20th century, had by far the greater impact, positive and negative--particularly negative insofar as the native Americans are concerned. My original observation about the European discovery of America making the bigger mark in history is, as I said, an objective statement. If I cared to be subjective at this moment, I would say I have great regrets that Columbus came and was followed by the sword and the cross. Americans bear, in my mind, enormous guilt for essentially genocidal policies that has left native remnants selling their souls (or gaining revenge) in a few reservation casinos. > 4) May I remind Mr Magary of the old saying "The absence of evidence is not > evidence of absence". Oh, yes, I am sure that we will uncover the foundations of vast cities founded by the Chinese in the Americas and millions of lost scrolls documenting their discovery and conquest and settlement, and that the European discovery of America will become a tiny footnote, if that. Maybe tomorrow at 9 a.m.; maybe never. Until then I think historians should go by what evidence there is. Al Magary _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 21:17:39 +1200 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] RGS lecture To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Al Magary wrote: > Michael Ross wrote: > > 1) The discoveries, if they happened, might not mean anything to Mr. Magary, > > but they probably did to the Chinese, and the people on the coasts the > > expedition(s) supposedly touched. > > "Probably" meant something to the Chinese and the coastal people of Whereverland? Where is any > non-theological evidence that a Chinese adventure in the Caribbean happened in the first place, Please excuse my antiquated my spell-checker, but it cannot find the word "Caribbean" in my earlier statement above. > or if it happened, was anything more than a local, transitory experience for both sides? Reminds me of a US President's encounter with "grass"...I did not inhale! > Eg, did the Chinese colonize two entire continents and, for example, institute a worldwide > system based on enslaving native peoples? Apparently not. Local, transitory events, if real, > are found in antiquarian works, not histories. Perhaps their forefathers actually populated these lands in the first place. Have you read Stephen Oppenheimer's "Eden in the East: the Drowned Continent of Southeast Asia"? > > Forgive me, but that is like claiming the September 11 Twin Towers catastrophe means nothing > > because you don't live in New York, or the USA. The nonsense of such a claim is self evident. > Actually, I do live in the U.S.A., on the left coast. You'd be surprised > how out-of-it many Americans are who aren't on the East Coast or in the > associated "anthrax zone," which extended south to Florida and, I recall, > west to Indiana. Our big thing was a scare involving the Golden Gate > Bridge, which Republicans said was our Democratic governor's ignorant > misunderstanding or attempt to exploit a catastrophe. I have family in San Francisco and they sure as hell didn't regard their scare as a political game at the time. > The longterm effect of September 11 is obviously still be to be felt as we have just now passed > the six-month observance. IMHO the U.S. cannot long sustain either the present intensity of > the war on terrorism (especially as it becomes more diffuse in location and aims--Georgia, > Philippines, Yemen, Colombia...) And the next phase, which has already been planned > or the level of "homeland" security and suppression of civil liberties. Kent State revisited? > Vietnam showed our impatience with long, ugly wars; The same San Fran family members fought there, and survived...and wondered why afterwards. > Somalia (the Black Hawk Down incident) showed we do cut our losses and run; And how we glorify to justify > the slaughter along the Basra road in 1991 showed that even our most bloodyminded hawks get > cold feet at the wrong time; Amen > our persistently low level of foreign aid shows we will cut our aid to places like Afghanistan > just as quickly as we can; Watch this space...how many US aid people are there compared with the rest of the world? > the two- and four-year cycle of congressional and presidential elections shows that congresses > and presidents have foreign policies that wax and wane as predictably as the moon. Perhaps because we allow it to happen. > > 2) Mr. Magary's statement is truly Eurocentric...to the degree that what > > happened in the rest of the world is of no importance whatsoever. > > I made a statement only about what I call the European discovery of America. We were talking about a supposed set of worldwide Chinese discoveries. > I did not say it was the first discovery, only Europe's, and that it had an > impact that is still felt more than 500 years later, at least in the U.S. What you said was: "None of these possible early discoveries of America were worth anything if they weren't publicized and no one did anything with them. The European discovery of America is the one that made its mark in history. " So what you were claiming, IMHO, was that the only "discoveries" of any value were European, because they were the only ones recorded in "our" books! And they made their mark on whose history? > So I cannot see that it can be anything but "Eurocentric," if you want to > call it that. How do the Chinese view their "discovery" of the lands they visited? I suggest they do not claim that their voyages to India and Africa are the only valid ones. And they were there before we Europeans. > If the Chinese had "discovered" the New World in the same fashion, I suppose I would be citing > "the Chinese discovery of America" with similar objectivity. Yeh, and Monica doesn't like cigars either! > > The Polynesians did not discover any of the Pacific of course...only Europeans did. > Did I say that? You're assigning an opinion to me that I neither expressed nor believe in. As I understand what you claim, a discovery only has value if we Europeans recognise it...and we sure as hell did not recognise Polynesian discovery until relatively recently. > > 3) Perhaps the only reason "The European discovery of America is the one > > that made its mark in history" is because the only history Mr Magary knows > > about is the very limited, very late exploration by Europeans. Never mind > > that the whole world had been explored by other people before the Europeans > > even learnt to sail. > America was originally peopled from Asia and, perhaps and to a lesser > degree, from Polynesia. Or the other way around, as the growing body of evidence would suggest. > The second wave of peopling, largely from Europe until the 20th century, had by far the greater > impact, positive and negative--particularly negative insofar as the native Americans are > concerned. Through our eyes yes, but is that not a very self-centred view? > > 4) May I remind Mr Magary of the old saying "The absence of evidence is not > > evidence of absence". > Oh, yes, I am sure that we will uncover the foundations of vast cities > founded by the Chinese in the Americas and millions of lost scrolls > documenting their discovery and conquest and settlement, and that the > European discovery of America will become a tiny footnote, if that. When we have carried out an exhaustive search...then you might be entitled to make that claim.....until then.... European Discovery is the key phrase. Europeans discovering for Europeans....eurocentric perspective. > Maybe tomorrow at 9 a.m.; maybe never. If we want to rely on the daily media for our facts then yes you could be right. > Until then I think historians should go by what evidence there is. Or should they go by the validity of the evidence presented? Michael Ross _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Al Magary" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] RGS lecture Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 02:04:34 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Oh, my, this is fun, interlineating comments with Mr. Ross. I shall stop now as I think list subscribers will not be further amused. When the lost Chinese city in Delaware or Tobago or wherever is discovered, we can go at it again about the European discovery of America. Others can argue what they will about Chinese voyagers round the Cape of Good Hope, for I have no opinion. Meanwhile, to slough off your slur about Vietnam, I was in the 101st Airborne Division in Vietnam 1968-70, and I happened to visit your Kiwi gun battery SE of Saigon. Jolly folks, as I'm sure you are when you're off-list. Cheers, Al Magary _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Subject: [MapHist] Menzies RGS lecture Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:34:35 -0000 Thread-Topic: Menzies RGS lecture Thread-Index: AcHOcOFHlv6gTl3xRWOEHx/LjBlFhg== From: "Gillian Hutchinson" To: Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
I went to Gavin Menzies' RGS lecture on Friday. It was hugely well received (evangelist flavour about it all) and the place was thick with journalists and TV crews, so this idea is not going to fade away in a hurry. Here for fellow Maphisters are some notes on the gist of the argument (though I may not have grasped it too well).
 
Assertion - the great Chines voyage of 1421-1423 didn't just confine itself to Asia and Africa but also took in the N half of Australia and both coasts of the Americas. The proof for this is Chinese artefacts and memorial stones [but questionable dating evidence] and the fact that 'yellow-skinned people' met Columbus and other European explorers in unexpected places [?]. Plus 'very large mahogany shipwrecks' have been discovered in the Caribbean [I do hope they won't be destroyed by the expectations put on them].
 
The director of underwater archaeology for the Philippines spent 15 mins describing the wreck of a medieval coaster from the China, Vietnam and Philippines trade. Although interesting, it didn't advance Menzies' argument other than that it an anthracite dish found in it 'very probably came from S America because it was a sort used for grinding maize' [?].
 
There is a medieval Chinese book which has drawings of animals indigenous to S America. [I found this convincing. For the Chinese to get to S America, winds and currents would make it easier to go east around. Australia is also perfectly plausible.]
 
Now for the cartography. Menzies' assertion is that Nicolo da Conti, a Venetian who travelled with the Chinese fleet in the Indian Ocean, brought back charts which included the Americas and these were incorporated into a master chart in the possession of Dom Pedro. Columbus and Magellan had sight of this and so knew what they were doing. Magellan knew about his eponymous Straits and the Piri Reis [sic] chart shows the W coast of S America 'before Europeans set sail'. [Though presumably Vespucci was not the only one to follow up on Columbus and for every self-publicist there were others marked Commercial in Confidence.] The 1507 Waldseemuller world shows the W coast of California [not Atlantic Canada, then.] The accurate coastline of Africa in the 1502 Cantino chart must be due to Chinese navigators [Islamic cartographers aren't mentioned].
 
The 1424 Pizzigano chart shows Guadaloupe, identifiable by shape and volcano location. Carol Urness is credited with this and it looks convincing (Carol Urness was scheduled to speak but had to cancel last minute). What is less convincing is what I think Mr Menzies asserted, that it must have been the Chinese who did the charting, because the volcanoes erupted only in 1421.
 
Gillian Hutchinson
Curator of the History of Cartography
National Maritime Museum
Greenwich
London SE10 9NF
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Gillian Hutchinson wrote:

Now for the cartography. Menzies' assertion is that Nicolo da Conti, a Venetian who travelled with the Chinese fleet in the Indian Ocean, brought back charts which included the Americas
WHICH CHARTS? WHERE ARE THEY? IN WHICH TRADITION ARE THEY KNOWN?
and these were incorporated into a master chart in the possession of Dom Pedro.
SAME QUESTION: WHICH MASTER CHART? (see: Pinheiro Marques' theory)
Columbus and Magellan had sight of this
WHO SAID, WRITE OR REPORT THIS?

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  X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Ed Dahl" To: "MapHist \(to post\)" Subject: [MapHist] "Unexamined" VOC records Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 08:54:54 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Michael Ross -- You wrote: ***** > The Dutch kept secret a lot of their exploration of the > Pacific until they were ready, and we have only found > out through third party research well after the event. > In fact a large portion of the VOC files have yet to be > examined in detail, so we do not even know what the > VOC knew. ***** A friend of mine who did his doctoral thesis partly on the VOC is eager to learn about that "large portion of the VOC files" that has not been examined in detail. He is not subscribed to MapHist, but this is a matter that could be of considerable interest to MapHist subscribers. I will be happy to forward your reply to him. Ed Dahl, 1292 Montée Paiement, Gatineau (Québec) J8R 3K5 CANADA INTERNET: edahl@iosphere.net TEL: (819) 561-4029 FAX: (819) 561-7753 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 23:42:16 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [MapHist] "Unexamined" VOC records X-GCMulti: 1 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id PAA21026 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 At 10:54 PM 3/18/2002, you wrote: >Michael Ross -- You wrote: > >***** > > The Dutch kept secret a lot of their exploration of the > > Pacific until they were ready, and we have only found > > out through third party research well after the event. > > In fact a large portion of the VOC files have yet to be > > examined in detail, so we do not even know what the > > VOC knew. > >***** > >A friend of mine who did his doctoral thesis partly on the >VOC is eager to learn about that "large portion of the >VOC files" that has not been examined in detail. He is >not subscribed to MapHist, but this is a matter that could >be of considerable interest to MapHist subscribers. I will >be happy to forward your reply to him. > >Ed Dahl, 1292 Montée Paiement, Gatineau (Québec) > J8R 3K5 CANADA >INTERNET: edahl@iosphere.net >TEL: (819) 561-4029 FAX: (819) 561-7753 Well, I have been there several times and there are several kilometers of archives. In Indonesia there are archives but badly organized and in almost every place they have been there are, or have been archives. Some of them have been brought over after the factory was abandoned others were not. take a look here http://www.tanap.net/archives/introduction.htm It is indeed almost impossible to have researched them all, since there is almost not time enouhg, or better, there aren't enough researchers. Take a look here http://www.tanap.net/research/new_platform.htm But also here National Archives of Indonesia http://www.tanap.net/archives/archives/indonesia.htm National Archives of Sri Lanka http://www.tanap.net/archives/archives/srilanka.htm Tamil Nadu Archives http://www.tanap.net/archives/archives/tamil.htm Cape Town Archives Repository http://www.tanap.net/archives/archives/capetown.htm National Archives of the Netherlands http://www.tanap.net/archives/archives/ara.htm Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl (in English) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm In Dutch http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/Dutch Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/FritsVos Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://odin.prohosting.com/savenije/index.htm#bovenaan (in English) Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.geocities.com/hennysavenije The way a ship was rigged: http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/shiprigg.htm Old Korea in pictures http://cloud.prohosting.com/hsavenij/index.htm#bovenaan Genealogy http://www.geocities.com/hennysavenije/genealogy _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 06:22:20 +1200 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] Menzies RGS lecture To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714

Gillian
 
Thank you for some hard facts on the Menzies presentation.
 
Michael
 

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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of Gillian Hutchinson
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 11:35 PM
To: Maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Menzies RGS lecture

I went to Gavin Menzies' RGS lecture on Friday. It was hugely well received (evangelist flavour about it all) and the place was thick with journalists and TV crews, so this idea is not going to fade away in a hurry. Here for fellow Maphisters are some notes on the gist of the argument (though I may not have grasped it too well).
 
Assertion - the great Chines voyage of 1421-1423 didn't just confine itself to Asia and Africa but also took in the N half of Australia and both coasts of the Americas. The proof for this is Chinese artefacts and memorial stones [but questionable dating evidence] and the fact that 'yellow-skinned people' met Columbus and other European explorers in unexpected places [?]. Plus 'very large mahogany shipwrecks' have been discovered in the Caribbean [I do hope they won't be destroyed by the expectations put on them].
 
The director of underwater archaeology for the Philippines spent 15 mins describing the wreck of a medieval coaster from the China, Vietnam and Philippines trade. Although interesting, it didn't advance Menzies' argument other than that it an anthracite dish found in it 'very probably came from S America because it was a sort used for grinding maize' [?].
 
There is a medieval Chinese book which has drawings of animals indigenous to S America. [I found this convincing. For the Chinese to get to S America, winds and currents would make it easier to go east around. Australia is also perfectly plausible.]
 
Now for the cartography. Menzies' assertion is that Nicolo da Conti, a Venetian who travelled with the Chinese fleet in the Indian Ocean, brought back charts which included the Americas and these were incorporated into a master chart in the possession of Dom Pedro. Columbus and Magellan had sight of this and so knew what they were doing. Magellan knew about his eponymous Straits and the Piri Reis [sic] chart shows the W coast of S America 'before Europeans set sail'. [Though presumably Vespucci was not the only one to follow up on Columbus and for every self-publicist there were others marked Commercial in Confidence.] The 1507 Waldseemuller world shows the W coast of California [not Atlantic Canada, then.] The accurate coastline of Africa in the 1502 Cantino chart must be due to Chinese navigators [Islamic cartographers aren't mentioned].
 
The 1424 Pizzigano chart shows Guadaloupe, identifiable by shape and volcano location. Carol Urness is credited with this and it looks convincing (Carol Urness was scheduled to speak but had to cancel last minute). What is less convincing is what I think Mr Menzies asserted, that it must have been the Chinese who did the charting, because the volcanoes erupted only in 1421.
 
Gillian Hutchinson
Curator of the History of Cartography
National Maritime Museum
Greenwich
London SE10 9NF
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 06:28:16 +1200 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] "Unexamined" VOC records To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Ed I am not so sure there would be much interest from this list as I have raised Dutch exploration issues before and at times not even received so much as one response. Very happy to provide detail to your colleague off-line if you would be so kind as to pass my email address to him. Specifically what was the subject of his thesis? Regards Michael _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 06:37:45 +1200 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] "Unexamined" VOC records To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Henny Thank you. I only knew about some of the archives on your list, and detailed at the website. Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On > Behalf Of Henny Savenije > Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 2:42 AM > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: Re: [MapHist] "Unexamined" VOC records > > > At 10:54 PM 3/18/2002, you wrote: > >Michael Ross -- You wrote: > > > >***** > > > The Dutch kept secret a lot of their exploration of the > > > Pacific until they were ready, and we have only found > > > out through third party research well after the event. > > > In fact a large portion of the VOC files have yet to be > > > examined in detail, so we do not even know what the > > > VOC knew. > > > >***** > > > >A friend of mine who did his doctoral thesis partly on the > >VOC is eager to learn about that "large portion of the > >VOC files" that has not been examined in detail. He is > >not subscribed to MapHist, but this is a matter that could > >be of considerable interest to MapHist subscribers. I will > >be happy to forward your reply to him. > > > >Ed Dahl, 1292 Montée Paiement, Gatineau (Québec) > > J8R 3K5 CANADA > >INTERNET: edahl@iosphere.net > >TEL: (819) 561-4029 FAX: (819) 561-7753 > > Well, I have been there several times and there are several kilometers of > archives. In Indonesia there are archives but badly organized and in > almost every place they have been there are, or have been > archives. Some of > them have been brought over after the factory was abandoned > others were not. > > take a look here > http://www.tanap.net/archives/introduction.htm > It is indeed almost impossible to have researched them all, since > there is > almost not time enouhg, or better, there aren't enough researchers. > > Take a look here > http://www.tanap.net/research/new_platform.htm > > But also here > > National Archives of Indonesia > http://www.tanap.net/archives/archives/indonesia.htm > > National Archives of Sri Lanka > http://www.tanap.net/archives/archives/srilanka.htm > > Tamil Nadu Archives > http://www.tanap.net/archives/archives/tamil.htm > > Cape Town Archives Repository > http://www.tanap.net/archives/archives/capetown.htm > > National Archives of the Netherlands > http://www.tanap.net/archives/archives/ara.htm > > > > Henny (Lee Hae Kang) > ----------------------------- > > Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) > http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl (in English) > In Korean > http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm > In Dutch > http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/Dutch > Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch > dictionary > http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/FritsVos > Korea through Western Cartographic eyes > http://odin.prohosting.com/savenije/index.htm#bovenaan (in English) > Hwasong the fortress in Suwon > http://www.geocities.com/hennysavenije > The way a ship was rigged: > http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/shiprigg.htm > Old Korea in pictures > http://cloud.prohosting.com/hsavenij/index.htm#bovenaan > Genealogy > http://www.geocities.com/hennysavenije/genealogy > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 14:26:46 -0500 From: Overlee Farm Books X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] "Unexamined" VOC records Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I was a Professor of History for twenty-five years and I can offer a reason why there is so very little interest in Dutch exploration; namely, hardly a single American-born historian can read Dutch. Martin Torodash Michael Ross wrote: > Ed > > I am not so sure there would be much interest from this list as I have > raised Dutch exploration issues before and at times not even received so > much as one response. > > Very happy to provide detail to your colleague off-line if you would be so > kind as to pass my email address to him. Specifically what was the subject > of his thesis? > > Regards > > Michael > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Harold J. Cook" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] "Unexamined" VOC records Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:02:06 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I'm writing a book on early-modern Dutch medicine and natural history that involves considerable research in the history of Dutch exploration. I learned to read and speak Dutch long after I finished graduate school, and find it a language both useful and beautiful. The Dutch are justly famous for their erudition and for their hospitality. Having said that, I must admit that native English speakers who read Dutch well are few and those who speak it even fewer. I remember one scholar who contributed a chapter on the Dutch influence of William Harvey to a collected volume, and added a footnote at the end admitting that his work would have been of greater value if he had been able to read Dutch! Prof. Harold J. Cook Director, Wellcome Trust Centre for the History of Medicine at University College London (and an American) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020311 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] "Unexamined" VOC records Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 On the other hand, acquiring at least a minimal reading knowledge of the Dutch language doesn't seem like it would be too big an obstacle for someone who already spoke English and had an interest in Dutch exploration. On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 at 14:26:46 -0500 wrote: > I was a Professor of History for twenty-five years and I can offer a reason > why there is so very little interest in Dutch exploration; namely, hardly a > single American-born historian can read Dutch. Martin Torodash > > Michael Ross wrote: > > >>Ed >> >>I am not so sure there would be much interest from this list as I have >>raised Dutch exploration issues before and at times not even received so >>much as one response. >> >>Very happy to provide detail to your colleague off-line if you would be so >>kind as to pass my email address to him. Specifically what was the subject >>of his thesis? >> >>Regards >> >>Michael _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:58:23 +1200 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] "Unexamined" VOC records To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Touche...this writer included! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ Michael Ross Performance Resources Voice: +64.21.897.889 Fax: +64.21.218.2166 michael.ross@clear.net.nz Legal Notice: The information in this electronic mail message is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to, or use of, this Internet electronic mail message by anyone else is not authorised. Please delete all copies of this message if you are not the intended addressee. __________________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On > Behalf Of Overlee Farm Books > Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 7:27 AM > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: Re: [MapHist] "Unexamined" VOC records > > > I was a Professor of History for twenty-five years and I can > offer a reason > why there is so very little interest in Dutch exploration; > namely, hardly a > single American-born historian can read Dutch. Martin Torodash > > Michael Ross wrote: > > > Ed > > > > I am not so sure there would be much interest from this list as I have > > raised Dutch exploration issues before and at times not even received so > > much as one response. > > > > Very happy to provide detail to your colleague off-line if you > would be so > > kind as to pass my email address to him. Specifically what was > the subject > > of his thesis? > > > > Regards > > > > Michael > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl > List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 06:56:40 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: RE: [MapHist] "Unexamined" VOC records X-GCMulti: 1 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 At 05:02 AM 3/19/2002, you wrote: >I'm writing a book on early-modern Dutch medicine and natural history that >Director, Wellcome Trust Centre for the History of Medicine at University >College London (and an American) You might give it a try to learn it by starting to examine my word to word translation and read the 17th century handwriting by taking a look at the transcriptions. 17th century Dutch is not exactly modern Dutch let alone the handwriting. Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl (in English) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm In Dutch http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/Dutch Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/FritsVos Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://odin.prohosting.com/savenije/index.htm#bovenaan (in English) Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.geocities.com/hennysavenije The way a ship was rigged: http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/shiprigg.htm Old Korea in pictures http://cloud.prohosting.com/hsavenij/index.htm#bovenaan Genealogy http://www.geocities.com/hennysavenije/genealogy _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Bruce Ward" To: Subject: [MapHist] RGS lecture Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 14:59:23 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The Vancouver Maritime Museum currently has an exhibit titled "The Watery Kingdom: China's Mariners from Antiquity to the Ming Dynasty". The curator is the Director, Jim Delgado. The exhibit started Jan 31st and goes to May 21, 2002. The panels on the maritime history include Adm. Zheng He's seven expedition to the Indian Ocean (or beyond? as proposed in the RGS lecture). The panels are accompanied by jade artifacts, images on paper, ship models and archaeological findings. As a docent/volunteer guide in the museum, we have used the following web sites for reference. The first and shorter one includes reference to "24 surprising accurate navigational charts he produced". www.china2thou.com/9805p7.htm www.cronab.demon.co.uk/china.htm Depending on the Mandarin or Cantonese translation or pronunciation, you can find additional references under his other names . Ma He, as an ethnic Chinese Muslim youth Cheng Ho instead of Zheng He Sanboa Taijain (Triple Protector, Great Superintendent) Bruce Ward, Map Society of BC biw@direct.ca _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.1 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:25:39 +0100 From: "Theodor Bauer" To: Subject: Antw: [MapHist] RGS lecture Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Lieber Herr Dr. Grönbold, schön daß die Liste brauchbar ist. Gerade kam auch noch diese e-mail herein. Vielleicht ist auch das interessant. Gruß, Bauer >>> biw@direct.ca 18.03.02 23:59:23 >>> The Vancouver Maritime Museum currently has an exhibit titled "The Watery Kingdom: China's Mariners from Antiquity to the Ming Dynasty". The curator is the Director, Jim Delgado. The exhibit started Jan 31st and goes to May 21, 2002. The panels on the maritime history include Adm. Zheng He's seven expedition to the Indian Ocean (or beyond? as proposed in the RGS lecture). The panels are accompanied by jade artifacts, images on paper, ship models and archaeological findings. As a docent/volunteer guide in the museum, we have used the following web sites for reference. The first and shorter one includes reference to "24 surprising accurate navigational charts he produced". www.china2thou.com/9805p7.htm www.cronab.demon.co.uk/china.htm Depending on the Mandarin or Cantonese translation or pronunciation, you can find additional references under his other names . Ma He, as an ethnic Chinese Muslim youth Cheng Ho instead of Zheng He Sanboa Taijain (Triple Protector, Great Superintendent) Bruce Ward, Map Society of BC biw@direct.ca _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:57:09 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] Re: lecture Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [Carol Urness ] Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 14:45:58 -0600 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Carol Urness Subject: Re: lecture Dear MapHistory Members, I am writing in response to postings concerning the Gavin Menzies lecture, since I have been corresponding with him for more than a year and have read two very different drafts of a book that he is writing. Prior to the beginning of our correspondence I promised that I would not discuss the content (I guess until publication) and I will keep that promise. The 1424 nautical chart and the Waldseemuller globe gores in the James Ford Bell Library are discussed in Gavin's work. In the first draft (returned long ago) these maps were important; in the second the 1424 nautical chart is dealt with in about 10 pages (of over 200) and the globe gores in one page. Areas depicted on these maps (and others) that were not to that time explored by Europeans are given as evidence in support of Gavin's theory about the Chinese voyages of circumnavigation and the mapping done during them. I was invited to speak at the lecture in London. By the time that I decided to go, the costs were just too high. These are reproduced on the James Ford Bell Library web site at http://bell.lib.umn.edu under the section Maps and Mapmakers and also in the historical maps section. There are also two pamphlets available that I wrote: "Portolan Charts" and "Waldseemuller's Globe and Planisphere" (both 1999). I will not discuss the content; I did not promise to refrain from comment on Gavin's research. In the part concerning the 1424 nautical chart and the globe gores, I found his work to be convincing and his findings to be worthy of serious consideration. About the rest others will have to judge. I will send him a copy of this message and suggest that he offer to present a paper at the fall meeting of the Society for the History of Discoveries. I believe that would be an excellent forum for further discussion. Thank you. Professor Carol Urness, Curator Emeritus of the James Ford Bell Library YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Dr Peter van der Krogt Map Historian, Explokart Research Program Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht P.O. Box 80.115 3508 TC UTRECHT, The Netherlands e-mail: peter@maphist.nl Homepage: MapHist: Genealogy: Elementymology: Columbus Monuments: YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.1 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 11:35:12 +0100 From: "Theodor Bauer" To: <>, Subject: [MapHist] Sorry I misposted a message ! Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Sorry maphisters, I just got a mail wrong Shall never happen again, I pray Theo _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 06:53:45 -0800 Subject: [MapHist] Maps in the American Revolution (an upcoming conference talk) From: "Penny L. Richards" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id PAA25596 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 [Found this, below, at a conference schedule website, http://nwta.com/schedule/symposium.htm --It's from a conference called "Symposium on Revolutionary America, 1765-1789", to be held in April at Glen Ellyn, Illinois, USA. Just a heads up, I don't have any connection to this fellow or this conference and won't be attending. --Penny L. Richards PhD Research Scholar, UCLA Center for the Study of Women Co-editor, H-Education and H-Disability turley2@earthlink.net] Papers Presentation - Using Maps as Weapons in the Struggle for Pre- and Post-Revolutionary War Trans-Appalachia (1733-ca. 1800) - Raymond M. Brod, Ph.D. The region west of the Appalachian Mountains could have been a unifying element between Britain and the colonies. This vast area already generated much interest as a place in which to invest and also send excess population. Instead of creating a common goal with the colonies, Britain closed trans-Appalachia to colonial interests with the Proclamation of 1763. Further alienation occurred with the Quebec Act of 1774, which again denied American settlers access to the region and ceded administrative control to Catholic Quebec. After the Revolution the United States immediately began consolidating it trans-Appalachian position.  Land was required to pay soldiers, colonial charters had to be sorted out, the western flank of the new nation had to be protected, and a national identity established. Contemporary maps reflected much of the struggle to subdue the area north of the Ohio River.  They became surrogate armies, claiming territory where no soldier had ever bivouacked, and created mythical landscapes to support political claims.  Both Britain and the United States understood the strategic value of this North American heartland. Using historical maps, theoretical literature associated with the new field of social cartography, and current publications in the history of cartography, the article will show how maps were used as weapons both against other European powers, and also to subdue the Native American populations before and after the Revolution.  The Revolutionary War did no more than interrupt the ultimate westward movement of the Atlantic coast population. Biography: Dr. Raymond Brod, who received his Ph.D. from the University of Illinois at Chicago, is a cartographer with the Geography Program in the Anthropology Department at the University of Illinois at Chicago. Previous presentations include: * Illinois State Historical Society Symposium, December, 2001 * Illinois Historical Preservation Agency Conference, October, 2000 - Interpreting R.W. Chandler¹s Map of the United States Lead Mines on the Upper Mississippi * Symposium on Cartographic Traditions in American History, University of Illinois at Chicago, Department of History, July 1999 - Interpreting Celebrating Graphics to Reconstruct Perceptions of the Conquest of the Northwest Territory * Symposium on Cartographic Traditions in American History, University of Illinois at Chicago, Department of History, July 1999 - European Imperial Maps of the Americas * Symposium on Cartographic Traditions in American History, University of Illinois at Chicago, Department of History, June 1995 - Mapping and Maps:  A Cartographer¹s View * Illinois State Historical Society Symposium, December 1994 - The Debate over Global Projections Selected Publications include: * Yesterday¹s City; ³All Prairiedom has Broken Loose.² Chicago History Spring 1996 * The Art of Persuasion: John Smith¹s Virginia and New England Maps. Historical Geography 1995 * The Debate over Global Projections. Source Maps and the Social Studies 1994 * Seutter at the Newberry, Mapline September 1985 * Generalization: A Fundamental Process in Cartography. Bulletin of the Illinois Geographical Society Spring 1979 * Planning and Designing Maps; A Guide for the Geography Student. The Kansas Geographer Spring 1977 * China¹s Attitude Toward Her National Space; Its Relationship to Sinkiang. Pakistan Geographical Review 1975 * Some Thoughts on Thematic Map Design. The Virginia Geographer 1971 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht List e-mail: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-owner's e-mail: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 19:14:49 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: RE: [MapHist] "Unexamined" VOC records Cc: O.F.Hefting@frw.uva.nl, hannedea@HOTMAIL.COM Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["Oscar Hefting" ] From: "Oscar Hefting" To: Cc: "hannedea" , "Joep de Koning" Subject: RE: [MapHist] "Unexamined" VOC records Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:08:29 +0100 Dear Mr. Michael Ross, We got this information from Joep de Koning, from the Historic New Netherlands Project. Please can you inform us about this thesis and all other information about Dutch exploration your have. Hereby I send you some attached information [I have placed this on http://www.maphist.nl/discpapers.html , Peter] about the MOWIC Foundation (in english and Dutch), working on 17th cemtury Dutch exploration in the Atlantic. Regards Oscar Hefting, Secretary MOWIC Foundation As well on behalf of Mrs. Hannedea van Nederveen Meerkerk, President -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of Overlee Farm Books Sent: maandag 18 maart 2002 20:27 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] "Unexamined" VOC records I was a Professor of History for twenty-five years and I can offer a reason why there is so very little interest in Dutch exploration; namely, hardly a single American-born historian can read Dutch. Martin Torodash Michael Ross wrote: > Ed > > I am not so sure there would be much interest from this list as I have > raised Dutch exploration issues before and at times not even received so > much as one response. > > Very happy to provide detail to your colleague off-line if you would be so > kind as to pass my email address to him. Specifically what was the subject > of his thesis? > > Regards > > Michael > Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Mike Zaun" To: Subject: [MapHist] Database Of Map Makers Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:22:41 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Does anybody know of a complete, or mostly complete Database of Map Makers? I would like to link many of our maps to a concrete database of map makers. If not some one should create one. I know I would use it on a daily basis, and would love to link our maps for sale to accurate information of who made them. Michael Michael Zaun Director of Internet Operations Art Source International Inc. 1237 Pearl Street Boulder, Colorado 80302 Phone 303.444.4079 FAX 303.444.4298 http://www.mapsandprints.com Email: INFO@MAPSANDPRINTS.COM Buy them a unique antique gift they will appreciate for years. --Over 9,000 Maps Online with Pictures/Descriptions --Map Tracker!! Map Tracker!! Map Tracker!! --Join our newsletter --Enter our monthly contest --Download our FREE antique map screen savers --Illuminated Manuscripts --Selected globes are 15% +FREE Shipping! --View our NEW Rare Maps section --Collectors Guide --Live Camera --Framed and Rare Maps _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Jernej Sekolec" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Re: source for web-based map Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:42:52 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I would be grateful for an indication of a source for world maps in electronic form showing boundaries of countries (now or at various points in history) which can be placed on a website and which can be colour-coded or written over to indicate particular groups or categories of countries. Thank you, Jernej Sekolec Vienna, Austria _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:49:50 +0100 From: "Dr. Zsolt Torok" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] 9-11 map gift for America Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear MapHisters, Shortly after the 9-11 tragedy in the United States I offered - using this list - ten copies of my original technology, limited edition Munster America (1540-1992)map for US collections, libraries or organizations. I send a preliminary project report below to inform all who would like to learn more about the first successful arrangements. At the same time I would like to express my gratitude to those map friends who have helped me in finding the care, attention and access for my gift in the United States. Thank you. Dr. Zsolt Torok, the traditional map and globe maker http://lazarus.elte.hu/~zoltorok ........................................................ 9-11 Munster America map gift for America Preliminary report State: 18 March, 2002 After September 11, 202 Dr. Zsolt Török, the only traditional map and globe maker, who published Sebastian Münster's 1540 map of the Americas by original technology offered ten gift copies of his edition to express his sympathy over the terrible loss. These copies of the 1992 limited edition were printed from hand cut woodblock on hand made paper and colored by hand. Dr. Török offered his unique map gift for the American nation. US map collections, institutions or organizations who would ensure public access to the map and who would arrange a temporal display have been selected from the applicants, who recognized the real and symbolic value of the offer. The first Münster America quincentennial edition map was sent to the American Geographical Society's Collection in Milwaukee, where the creator was one time Research Fellow. It is a great honor the the Map Division of Library of Congress, Washington, D.C., the largest map collection of the world, would include a gift copy among its 4.8 million holdings. It is a special recognition that Dr. Török's map will be displayed there, while another gift copy would decorate The Newberry Library in Chicago. Harvard Map Collection, Cambridge, Mass., and the Osher Map Library and Smith Center for Cartographic Education in Portland, Maine were also selected for and presented by a Münster America map. Upon cataloging the items will be held in these fine collections of early maps, at the same time they will be available to the public. For more information on the gift project please, visit: http://lazarus.elte.hu/~zoltorok/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:50:25 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Database Of Map Makers To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 256 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 3/19/2002 3:44:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, info@MAPSANDPRINTS.COM writes:


Does anybody know of a complete, or mostly complete Database of Map Makers?
I would like to link many of our maps to a concrete database of map makers.
If not some one should create one.  I know I would use it on a daily basis,

Michael: Buy a copy of Tooley's Dictionary!!! But you better check the copyright laws and obtain agreement of the copyright owners before setting up an electronic database based on Tooley. Have fun with data entry. Mark From: Ethan.Gomberg@cityoforlando.net X-Authentication-Warning: gatekeeper.ci.orlando.fl.us: mta set sender to using -f Subject: Re: [MapHist] Database Of Map Makers To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:03:21 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on OrlMailSvc/Orlando(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 03/19/2002 04:03:22 PM Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Have you tried looking through Natl Geographic Society's website? ____________________________________________________ Ethan M. Gomberg City GIS, City of Orlando -Engineering Bureau 400 S. Orange Ave. Orlando, FL 32802 USA TEL 407.246.3064 FAX 407.246.2892 ethan.gomberg@cityoforlando.net Check out our website at http://www.cityoforlando.net/public_works/esd/gis "Mike Zaun" RINTS.COM> cc: Sent by: Subject: [MapHist] Database Of Map Makers owner-maphist@ geog.uu.nl 03/19/2002 03:22 PM Please respond to maphist Does anybody know of a complete, or mostly complete Database of Map Makers? I would like to link many of our maps to a concrete database of map makers. If not some one should create one. I know I would use it on a daily basis, and would love to link our maps for sale to accurate information of who made them. Michael Michael Zaun Director of Internet Operations Art Source International Inc. 1237 Pearl Street Boulder, Colorado 80302 Phone 303.444.4079 FAX 303.444.4298 http://www.mapsandprints.com Email: INFO@MAPSANDPRINTS.COM Buy them a unique antique gift they will appreciate for years. --Over 9,000 Maps Online with Pictures/Descriptions --Map Tracker!! Map Tracker!! Map Tracker!! --Join our newsletter --Enter our monthly contest --Download our FREE antique map screen savers --Illuminated Manuscripts --Selected globes are 15% +FREE Shipping! --View our NEW Rare Maps section --Collectors Guide --Live Camera --Framed and Rare Maps _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: WJWarren@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:08:51 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Database Of Map Makers To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I'm sure many others are familiar with the Library of Congress authority record site. It is one of the definitive sources for information on mapmakers. http://lcauth.dra.com:8002/lcauth. Bill Warren _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:27:56 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Database Of Map Makers To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 256 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 3/19/2002 4:24:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, WJWarren@aol.com writes:


I'm sure many others are familiar with the Library of Congress authority
record site. It is one of the definitive sources for information on
mapmakers. http://lcauth.dra.com:8002/lcauth.

Bill Warren



and in regard to mapmakers essentially relies on a subset of Tooley's Dictionary. Mark

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Al Magary" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Database Of Map Makers Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:40:15 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
> I'm sure many others are familiar with the Library of Congress authority
> record site. It is one of the definitive sources for information on
> mapmakers. http://lcauth.dra.com:8002/lcauth.
 
Nice tip.  I went there, clicked on Search by subject, and entered "cartography."  No hits.  "Mapmaking."  No hits.  "Maps."  No hits.
 
I clicked on Help and got, essentially, a runaround.
 
How on earth do you use this site, anyway?  Either the LC has no information (!) or this search engine isn't user friendly.  I suspect the latter.
 
Al Magary
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Mike Zaun" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Database Of Map Makers Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:10:52 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
I just checked it out, it seems to have the very basics, but no "meat and potatoes" to the listings. 
 
No detailed information, and I found it VERY hard to search.
 
Am I doing something wrong?
 
Mike
 

Michael Zaun
Director of Internet Operations
Art Source International Inc.
1237 Pearl Street
Boulder, Colorado 80302
Phone 303.444.4079
FAX   303.444.4298
http://www.mapsandprints.com

Email:  INFO@MAPSANDPRINTS.COM

Buy them a unique antique gift they will appreciate for years.


--Over 9,000 Maps Online with Pictures/Descriptions
--Map Tracker!!  Map Tracker!! Map Tracker!!
--Join our newsletter
--Enter our monthly contest
--Download our FREE antique map screen savers
--Illuminated Manuscripts
--Selected globes are 15% +FREE Shipping!
--View our NEW Rare Maps section
--Collectors Guide
--Live Camera
--Framed and Rare Maps




-----Original Message-----
From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of Al Magary
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 3:40 PM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Database Of Map Makers

> I'm sure many others are familiar with the Library of Congress authority
> record site. It is one of the definitive sources for information on
> mapmakers. http://lcauth.dra.com:8002/lcauth.
 
Nice tip.  I went there, clicked on Search by subject, and entered "cartography."  No hits.  "Mapmaking."  No hits.  "Maps."  No hits.
 
I clicked on Help and got, essentially, a runaround.
 
How on earth do you use this site, anyway?  Either the LC has no information (!) or this search engine isn't user friendly.  I suspect the latter.
 
Al Magary
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Al Magary" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] source for web-based map Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:24:34 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 > I would be grateful for an indication of a source for world maps in electronic form showing > boundaries of countries (now or at various points in history) which can be placed on a website and > which can be colour-coded or written over to indicate particular groups or categories of countries. I asked Google for "outline maps" and of course got a nice list, beginning with an education site (http://www.eduplace.com/ss/ssmaps/) offering electronic versions of these maps, among many others: World: Atlantic View World: Continents World: Countries World: Pacific View World: Physical Al Magary Attachment Converted: bluegem.gif: 00000001,00000001,00000000,3c6aec23 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Evelyn Edson" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Re: source for web-based map Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 18:32:19 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Mr. Sekolec: This is not quite the world, but if you look at www.euratlas.com you will find a series of maps of Europe from A.D. 1 through 1700 (one per century) with changing boundaries. This Atlas Historique Périodique is also available on CD-Rom from its producer in Switzerland. Details available on the website. Evelyn Edson Professor of History Piedmont Virginia Community College 501 College Drive Charlottesville, VA 22902 (434) 961-5384 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Mike Zaun" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Database Of Map Makers Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:32:59 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
I agree!
 

Michael Zaun
Director of Internet Operations
Art Source International Inc.
1237 Pearl Street
Boulder, Colorado 80302
Phone 303.444.4079
FAX   303.444.4298
http://www.mapsandprints.com

Email:  INFO@MAPSANDPRINTS.COM

Buy them a unique antique gift they will appreciate for years.


--Over 9,000 Maps Online with Pictures/Descriptions
--Map Tracker!!  Map Tracker!! Map Tracker!!
--Join our newsletter
--Enter our monthly contest
--Download our FREE antique map screen savers
--Illuminated Manuscripts
--Selected globes are 15% +FREE Shipping!
--View our NEW Rare Maps section
--Collectors Guide
--Live Camera
--Framed and Rare Maps




-----Original Message-----
From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of Hugo Stibbe
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 5:05 PM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Database Of Map Makers

Al -- the LC authority database is, as far as I know, about authors, cartographers, map makers and perhaps engravers, not about maps, cartography, etc.  It means you have to search for a NAME, not a subject.  I did think that subjects and authors were integrated in the LC authority database, but your experience demonstrates that they are not.
How useful is this database?  I am not sure.
Hugo Stibbe
Ottawa, Canada
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Al Magary
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Database Of Map Makers

> I'm sure many others are familiar with the Library of Congress authority
> record site. It is one of the definitive sources for information on
> mapmakers. http://lcauth.dra.com:8002/lcauth.
 
Nice tip.  I went there, clicked on Search by subject, and entered "cartography."  No hits.  "Mapmaking."  No hits.  "Maps."  No hits.
 
I clicked on Help and got, essentially, a runaround.
 
How on earth do you use this site, anyway?  Either the LC has no information (!) or this search engine isn't user friendly.  I suspect the latter.
 
Al Magary
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:59:36 -0600 From: John Dunlevy User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020311 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Database Of Map Makers Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I'm finding to be much more usable. Very unscientific test, I know, but this site might be more complete, as well. A test search on Schreiber, J gets me 4 results for "Johann Georg Schreiber" ("[from old catalog]"), where the same search at does not include these. Hugo Stibbe wrote: > Al -- the LC authority database is, as far as I know, about authors, > cartographers, map makers and perhaps engravers, not about maps, > cartography, etc. It means you have to search for a NAME, not a > subject. I did think that subjects and authors were integrated in the > LC authority database, but your experience demonstrates that they are not. > > How useful is this database? I am not sure. > > Hugo Stibbe > > Ottawa, Canada _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Hugo Stibbe" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Database Of Map Makers Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 18:04:52 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [24.157.112.82] using ID at Tue, 19 Mar 2002 18:06:34 -0500 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Al -- the LC authority database is, as far as I know, about authors, cartographers, map makers and perhaps engravers, not about maps, cartography, etc.  It means you have to search for a NAME, not a subject.  I did think that subjects and authors were integrated in the LC authority database, but your experience demonstrates that they are not.
How useful is this database?  I am not sure.
Hugo Stibbe
Ottawa, Canada
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Al Magary
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Database Of Map Makers

> I'm sure many others are familiar with the Library of Congress authority
> record site. It is one of the definitive sources for information on
> mapmakers. http://lcauth.dra.com:8002/lcauth.
 
Nice tip.  I went there, clicked on Search by subject, and entered "cartography."  No hits.  "Mapmaking."  No hits.  "Maps."  No hits.
 
I clicked on Help and got, essentially, a runaround.
 
How on earth do you use this site, anyway?  Either the LC has no information (!) or this search engine isn't user friendly.  I suspect the latter.
 
Al Magary
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:22:54 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] Last orders on British Library map exhibition! Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["Carlucci, April" ] From: "Carlucci, April" To: "Carto-Soc@Sheffield. Ac. Uk (E-mail)" , "Lis-Maps (E-mail)" , "Maphist (E-mail)" , "Maps-L@Uga. Cc. Uga. Edu (E-mail)" , "Maptrade (E-mail)" Subject: Last orders on British Library map exhibition! Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:59:04 -0000 Please excuse the commercial and the cross-posting. If you're in London in the next few weeks you've got until 7 April 2002 to visit (or visit again) the exhibition The Lie of the Land, the Secret Life of Maps at the British Library at St Pancras. See: World War II prisoner of war escape maps! The map used to bomb Dresden! The disappearing airport! The first jigsaw puzzle! Nazi and Soviet invasion plans! The secret map of London the government didn't want the public to see! Paradise located on a map! One of the most important maps in American history--kept secret from the Americans for over a hundred years! Details of the exhibition and a short virtual tour can be viewed at: http://www.bl.uk/whatson/exhibitions/lieland/overview.html Details of the illustrated book of the exhibition and how to order it online are available at: http://www.bl.uk/services/publications/onlinemaps2.html#lie The British Library is located at 96 Euston Road, London NW1, a short walk from Euston, St Pancras and Kings Cross main line and Underground stations. The exhibition is open seven days at week, with late opening on Tuesdays until 8pm. The Library is closed for the Easter Holiday on Good Friday, Saturday and Easter Sunday. Telephone Visitor Services on +44 (0)20 7412 7332. Admission to the exhibition is free. The Lie of the Land is the most successful exhibition to date in the British Library, has received excellent reviews in the press and is very popular with the public. Don't miss it! ********************************************************************* The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the postmaster@bl.uk : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or copied without the sender's consent. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. ********************************************************************* _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "George S. Carhart" Organization: University of Southern Maine To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:52:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [MapHist] Menzies RGS lecture X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id RAA23437 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I have posted this as a reply to Dr. Gillian Hutchinson on maphist even though it is not a cartographic question. There is so much being discussed here about Mr. Menzies’ thesis and all of the aspects of his thesis should be examined before an opinion can be formed. a side question to the greater historical and history of cartography questions raised by Mr Menzies' RGS lecture. Did Mr. Menzies use the word “Mahogany” when he described the 'very large shipwrecks' discovered in the Caribbean? Did he emphasize that because these vessels were made of mahogany it in some way inferred a Chinese origin? If so I would like to point out that Mahogany (Swietenia mahagoni) is indigenous to Central and South America. Honduran Mahogany (Swietenia macropilla) is the variety that is most suited to maritime use. Chinese wooden vessels are and were generally constructed of Teak. Therefore I am not clear as to the significance of the mentioning that the shipwrecks are vessels made of mahogany. George Carhart On 18 Mar 2002, at 11:34, Gillian Hutchinson wrote: I went to Gavin Menzies' RGS lecture on Friday. It was hugely well received (evangelist flavour about it all) and the place was thick with journalists and TV crews, so this idea is not going to fade away in a hurry. Here for fellow Maphisters are some notes on the gist of the argument (though I may not have grasped it too well).  Assertion - the great Chines voyage of 1421-1423 didn't just confine itself to Asia and Africa but also took in the N half of Australiaand both coasts of the Americas. The proof for this is Chinese artefacts and memorial stones [but questionable dating evidence] and the fact that 'yellow-skinned people' met Columbus and other European explorers in unexpected places [?]. Plus 'very large mahogany shipwrecks' have been discovered in the Caribbean [I do hope they won't be destroyed by the expectations put on them].  The director of underwater archaeology for the Philippines spent 15 mins describing the wreck of a medieval coaster from the China, Vietnam andPhilippines trade. Although interesting, it didn't advance Menzies' argument other than that it an anthracite dish found in it 'very probably came from S America because it was a sort used for grinding maize' [?].  There is a medieval Chinese book which has drawings of animals indigenous to S America. [I found this convincing. For the Chinese to get to S America, winds and currents would make it easier to go east around. Australia is also perfectly plausible.]  Now for the cartography. Menzies' assertion is that Nicolo da Conti, a Venetian who travelled with the Chinese fleet in the Indian Ocean, brought back charts which included the Americas and these were incorporated into a master chart in the possession of Dom Pedro. Columbus and Magellan had sight of this and so knew what they were doing. Magellan knew about his eponymous Straits and the Piri Reis [sic] chart shows the W coast of S America 'before Europeans set sail'. [Though presumably Vespucci was not the only one to follow up on Columbus and for every self-publicist there were others marked Commercial in Confidence.] The 1507 Waldseemuller world shows the W coast of California [not Atlantic Canada, then.] The accurate coastline of Africa in the 1502 Cantino chart must be due to Chinese navigators [Islamic cartographers aren't mentioned].  The 1424 Pizzigano chart shows Guadaloupe, identifiable by shape and volcano location. Carol Urness is credited with this and it looks convincing (Carol Urness was scheduled to speak but had to cancellast minute). What is less convincing is what I think Mr Menzies asserted, that it must have been the Chinese who did the charting, because the volcanoes erupted only in 1421.  Gillian Hutchinson Curator of the History of Cartography National Maritime Museum Greenwich London SE10 9NF George S. Carhart Cartographic Associate Osher Map Library Smith Center for Cartographic Education University of Southern Maine P.O. Box 9301 Portland, Maine 04104-9301 USA (207) 780-4910 gcarhart@usm.maine.edu _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 19:59:10 +0100 (CET) From: Giada Melani Subject: [MapHist] Japanese cartography To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I'm an Italian student of Florence University and I'm looking for every kind of information about the history of Japanese cartography (titles of books, web-sites, journals...). Could anyone help me? shishy10@yahoo.it ______________________________________________________________________ La reginetta del pop è tornata! Ascolta'I'm Not A Girl, Not Yet A Woman' su Yahoo! http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/britney/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:25:09 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Japanese cartography To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 256 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 3/20/2002 2:19:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, shishy10@yahoo.it writes:


I'm an Italian student of Florence University and I'm
looking for every kind of information about the
history of Japanese cartography (titles of books,
web-sites, journals...).

Book - 'ISLES OF GOLD: ANTIQUE MAPS OF JAPAN' by Hugh Cortazzi, published Sept. 1983. Cortazzi has also other publications on Japan.
Mark X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:44:30 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: Re: [MapHist] Japanese cartography X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id UAA28252 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 A very good source is: J. B. Harley and David Woodward (eds), The History of Cartography: Volume 2, Book 2: Cartography in the Traditional East and Southeast Asian Societies. (Chicago and London: University of Chicago Press, 1994). Check also http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/lit.html Peter At 19:59 20-3-2002, you wrote: >I'm an Italian student of Florence University and I'm >looking for every kind of information about the >history of Japanese cartography (titles of books, >web-sites, journals...). > >Could anyone help me? > >shishy10@yahoo.it > >______________________________________________________________________ > >La reginetta del pop è tornata! Ascolta'I'm Not A Girl, Not Yet A Woman' >su Yahoo! >http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/britney/ >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Dr Peter van der Krogt Map Historian, Explokart Research Program Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht P.O. Box 80.115 3508 TC UTRECHT, The Netherlands e-mail: peter@maphist.nl Homepage: MapHist: Genealogy: Elementymology: Columbus Monuments: YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Philip Brown" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Japanese cartography Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:57:53 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Do you read Japanese? If so, there are a number of works that I can suggest. PC Brown -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of Giada Melani Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 1:59 PM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Japanese cartography I'm an Italian student of Florence University and I'm looking for every kind of information about the history of Japanese cartography (titles of books, web-sites, journals...). Could anyone help me? shishy10@yahoo.it ______________________________________________________________________ La reginetta del pop è tornata! Ascolta'I'm Not A Girl, Not Yet A Woman' su Yahoo! http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/britney/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:14:36 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Japanese cartography To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 256 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 3/20/2002 3:00:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, peter@maphist.nl writes:


A very good source is:

J. B. Harley and David Woodward (eds), The History of Cartography: Volume
2, Book 2: Cartography in the Traditional East and Southeast Asian
Societies.  (Chicago and London: University of Chicago Press, 1994).

Check also http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/lit.html

Peter

To follow up on Peter's list check also: SUAREZ, Thomas - 'EARLY MAPPING OF SOUTHEAST ASIA', published in 1999. To get to the first page of the multi-page INDEX to this book use URL below:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/9625934707/reader/15/002-3573548-3808018#reader-link

Mark X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: david.jones@ualberta.ca To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Japanese cartography Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:53:30 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id VAA00486 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 We have a quite number works on Japanese cartography - you could check our online catalog http://www.library.ualberta.ca/catalogue/ a keyword search on the words 'cartography' and 'japan' yielded 16 records. Also, have you checked Odden's Bookmarks? http://oddens.geog.uu.nl/index.html David David L. Jones, Map Librarian William C. Wonders Map Collection Science & Technology Library 1-26 Cameron Library University of Alberta Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6G 2J8 voice (780)492-3433 fax (780)492-2721 e-mail david.jones@ualberta.ca -----Original Message----- From: Giada Melani [mailto:shishy10@yahoo.it] Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 11:59 AM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Japanese cartography I'm an Italian student of Florence University and I'm looking for every kind of information about the history of Japanese cartography (titles of books, web-sites, journals...). Could anyone help me? shishy10@yahoo.it ______________________________________________________________________ La reginetta del pop è tornata! Ascolta'I'm Not A Girl, Not Yet A Woman' su Yahoo! http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/britney/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:14:43 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [MapHist] Japanese cartography Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Also:

1. Lutz Walter (ed.): Japan A Cartographic Vision: European Printe Maps from the Early 16th to the 19th Century. Prestel-Verlag, 1994.

2. Yamashita Kazumasa: Japanese Maps of the Edo Period. Kashiwashobo, 1998. (This one can be particularly hard to locate, but a good library may have it.)

   Joel Kovarsky


At 07:59 PM 3/20/02 +0100, you wrote:
I'm an Italian student of Florence University and I'm
looking for every kind of information about the
history of Japanese cartography (titles of books,
web-sites, journals...).

Could anyone help me?

shishy10@yahoo.it

______________________________________________________________________

La reginetta del pop è tornata! Ascolta'I'm Not A Girl, Not Yet A Woman' su Yahoo!
http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/britney/
_______________________________________________________________
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:38:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [MapHist] Japanese cartography X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 From: "Paul D. Boyd" Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Also see the book Japan: A Cartographic Vision -- European Printed Maps from the Early 16th to the 19th Century. Lutz Walter (ed.) on behalf of the German East-Asiatic Society (OAG), Tokyo, on the occasion of its 120th aniversary. Published by Prestel-Verlag, Munich and New York in 1994, in both German and English editions. In the 1994 book, Prestel in Munich is at Mandlstrasse 26, 80802 Munich. Telephone (089) 38 17 09-0 Fax (089) 38 17 09 35. May have moved 8 years later??? Paul Boyd ___________________________________________________ On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:25:09 EST MKBabinski@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 3/20/2002 2:19:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, > shishy10@yahoo.it writes: > > > > I'm an Italian student of Florence University and I'm > > looking for every kind of information about the > > history of Japanese cartography (titles of books, > > web-sites, journals...). > > > Book - 'ISLES OF GOLD: ANTIQUE MAPS OF JAPAN' by Hugh Cortazzi, > published > Sept. 1983. Cortazzi has also other publications on Japan. > Mark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:31:33 -0800 (PST) From: Frances Woodward To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Japanese cartography X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id XAA02921 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 We have a large collection of Japanese maps of the Tokugawa period. In addition we have a number of books and articles in Japanese and English about the maps and the historical cartography of Japan. I assume you would like something in English. Prof. Kazutaka Unno has done the most work in this area, and has published in both Japanese and English. He wrote the chapter on Japanese cartography for The History of Cartography, and compiled the cartobibliography for more popular works. The History of cartography: Volume 2 Book2, Cartography in the Traditional East and Southeast Asian Societies. Chicago, London: University of Chicago Press, 1994. Old Maps in Japan, edited by Matsutaro Nanba, Nobuo Muroga and Katzutaka Unno, translated by Patricia Murray. Osaka: Sogensha, 1973. Isles of Gold: Antique Maps of Japan, by Hugh Cortazzi. New York: Weatherhill, 1983. Two more recent publications are: Japan: A Cartographic Vision: European Printed Maps from the Early 16th to the 19th Century, edited by Lutz Walter. Munich, New York: Prestel-Verlag, 1994. (mainly western maps) Japanese Maps of the Edo Period, by Kazumasa Yamashita, translated by Charles De Wolf. Tokyo: Kashiwashobo Publishing Co., 1998. I hope that this is of some help. Fran Woodward On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, [iso-8859-1] Giada Melani wrote: > I'm an Italian student of Florence University and I'm > looking for every kind of information about the > history of Japanese cartography (titles of books, > web-sites, journals...). > > Could anyone help me? > > shishy10@yahoo.it > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > La reginetta del pop è tornata! Ascolta'I'm Not A Girl, Not Yet A Woman' su Yahoo! > http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/britney/ > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > ************************************************************************** Frances Woodward, Reference Librarian, Special Collections, Main Library, University of British Columbia, 1956 Main Mall, Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 Tel: (604) 822-2819 Fax: (604) 822-9587 E-mail: franwood@interchange.ubc.ca URL: http://www.library.ubc.ca/spcoll/ Historical Maps Collection and Cartographic Archives Arkley Collection of Historical Children's Literature ************************************************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:41:17 -0800 (PST) From: Frances Woodward To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Japanese cartography Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In my previous posting I should have mentioned that the Yamashita book is bilingual, Japanese and English. The ISBN is 4-7601-1670-2 C0021. The map collection, and the books on the history of Japanese cartography are all listed in the Library's online catalogue: http://www.library.ubc.ca/home/catalogue Also look at the Historical Maps & Cartographic Archives section of the UBC Special Collections web site for information about the Japanese map collection, and for some images of the maps. http://www.library.ubc.ca/spcoll Best wishes, Fran Woodward ************************************************************************** Frances Woodward, Reference Librarian, Special Collections, Main Library, University of British Columbia, 1956 Main Mall, Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 Tel: (604) 822-2819 Fax: (604) 822-9587 E-mail: franwood@interchange.ubc.ca URL: http://www.library.ubc.ca/spcoll/ Historical Maps Collection and Cartographic Archives Arkley Collection of Historical Children's Literature ************************************************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:29:59 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] Japanese cartography Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 It should be noted Walter's fine book is about European maps of Japan, not Japanese maps per se. Dee, who remembers with fondness Lutz's kindnesses when IMCoS met in Tokyo >Also see the book Japan: A Cartographic Vision -- European Printed Maps >from the Early 16th to the 19th Century. Lutz Walter (ed.) on behalf of >the German East-Asiatic Society (OAG), Tokyo, on the occasion of its >120th aniversary. Published by Prestel-Verlag, Munich and New York in >1994, in both German and English editions. > >In the 1994 book, Prestel in Munich is at Mandlstrasse 26, 80802 Munich. >Telephone (089) 38 17 09-0 >Fax (089) 38 17 09 35. May have moved 8 years later??? > >Paul Boyd >___________________________________________________ > >On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:25:09 EST MKBabinski@aol.com writes: >> In a message dated 3/20/2002 2:19:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> shishy10@yahoo.it writes: >> >> >> > I'm an Italian student of Florence University and I'm >> > looking for every kind of information about the >> > history of Japanese cartography (titles of books, >> > web-sites, journals...). >> > >> Book - 'ISLES OF GOLD: ANTIQUE MAPS OF JAPAN' by Hugh Cortazzi, >> published >> Sept. 1983. Cortazzi has also other publications on Japan. >> Mark > > >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl -- The Observatory, ABAA 200 North Franklin Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone 907/586-9676 Fax 907/586-9606 deelong@alaska.com http://www.observatorybooks.com 1977-2002, our 25th year _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Ottomantom@cs.com Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:38:23 EST Subject: [MapHist] Book of Curiosities- lecture To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 6.0 for Windows US sub 10509 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 While many on the list are panting for specifics on a lecture recently delivered on Chinese maritime travels (and I wish my father were alive to hear the evidence, since this was an area of interest and expertise), I am panting for information about the lecture recently posted by Tony Campbell and hope someone can post more information:

"The Book of Curiosities of the Branches, and Marvels from the Sources, of Knowledge": A recently discovered 11th-century illustrated astronomical and geographical treatise.

An illustrated lecture by Dr. Jeremy Johns and Dr. Emilie Savage-Smith

The Oriental Institute, University of Oxford

Only very recently have scholars learned of the existence of a manuscript containing a highly illustrated treatise on astronomy and geography compiled by an unknown author in the late 11th century using predominately 11th-century sources. This is the only known copy and was probably made in Egypt in the 12th or 13th century. The treatise is divided into two books: one concerned with astronomy, containing an illustrated discussion of comets and numerous star-groups; the other devoted to geography and to natural and supernatural phenomena, which contains seventeen maps including two world maps of great importance and the earliest recorded maps of the islands of Cyprus and Sicily. Most of the maps are without parallel in any other Arabic, Persian, Greek, or Latin works. It is a most exciting discovery, and this lecture will be the first time "The Book of Curiosities " has been discussed in a public forum.

Society for the History of Medieval Science and Technology

16 March 2002.2:30 PM

Imperial College London Seminar Room 5, 5th Floor Sherfield Building X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Jan Selwood" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:19:52 +0900 Subject: Re: [MapHist] Japanese cartography X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In addition to the references given in earlier responses I found the following articles by Philip Brown very helpful regarding Tokugawa surveying and map making techniques: 'The Mismanagement of Land: Land Surveying in the Tokugawa Period' , Monumenta Nipponica, Vol 32, Summer 1987 pp115 - 155. 'State, Cultivator, Land: Determination of Land Tenures in Early Modern Japan Reconsidered', Journal of Asian Studies 56 May 1997 pp 421 - 444. I think both should be accessible through JSTOR journal reference site if you have access to this through your university. Following on from Giada Melani's question - I am particularly interested in the development of mapping in Japan in the early Meiji period 1868 - early 1900's, the establishment of the Japanese Geographic Survey Institute and transition to so called 'modern' map making techniques. Much of the material in English appears to concentrate on Tokugawa or earlier. Any help with references covering this period would be very much appreciated (preferably in English - modern Japanese at a pinch). Jan _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:46:17 EST Subject: [MapHist] MASON-DIXON MAP To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 256 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear MapHisters,

I cannot but praise the American spirit of competition: CHRISTIE'S vs. EBAY !!!

While CHRISTIE'S is auctioning off a Mason-Dixon map on March 27th (Lot 4, NY) estimated at $800K - $1.2 million, EBAY not to be outdone is auctioning off a slightly smaller yet also original Mason-Dixon map - with bidding starting at only $185 and NO RESERVE!!!! It even comes with an original 1769 write-up. EBAY'S auction ends on March 30th.

Now let me think - should I bid at Christie's or on Ebay? Tough choice!

URL of the EBAY Mason-Dixon map is below:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=853014617

Mark
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Philip Brown" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Japanese cartography Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 22:39:17 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Thank you, Jan, for noting my work on measurement and land tenure forms, although they do not deal directly with cartography. Regarding measurement of land, the following of my essays may also be of interest: "Never The Twain Shall Meet: European And Japanese Land Survey Techniques In Tokugawa Japan," Chinese Science, 9 (1989), pps. 53-79. "A Case of Failed Technology Transfer--Land Survey Technology in Early Modern Japan," Senri Ethnological Studies 46 (March, 1998) 83-97. Although I do not have citations at hand, Marcia Yonemoto (University of Colorado) and Mary Elizabeth Berry (Berkeley) are working on published maps and gazzetteers of the Edo period and their cultural roles. Professor Yonemoto has a piece in a recent Journal of Asian Studies issue. Philip Brown Ohio State University _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:27:03 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Lester Subject: [MapHist] Map Society mtg at Library of Virginia To: MapHist Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Greetings MapHisters, Please see our web site http://www.cummingmapsociety.org for information about our upcoming meeting at the Library of Virginia in Richmond on April 20, 2002. It's going to be great and nonmembers are invited. We have recently started posting Cumming Map Society members' favorite maps on our web site for all to enjoy: http://www.cummingmapsociety.org/maps.htm Thanks, ===== Jay Lester Chapel Hill, NC mapsguy@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: berggren@popserver.sfu.ca Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 22:41:41 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Len Berggren Subject: Re: [MapHist] Book of Curiosities- lecture Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I join the line of those eager for more information on this topic. I'm particularly interested in maps of Cyprus and would very much like to know if it is possible to see a reproduction of the map in the manuscript. Len Berggren >While many on the list are panting for specifics on a lecture recently >delivered on Chinese maritime travels (and I wish my father were alive to >hear the evidence, since this was an area of interest and expertise), I am >panting for information about the lecture recently posted by Tony Campbell >and hope someone can post more information: > >"The Book of Curiosities of the Branches, and Marvels from the Sources, of >Knowledge": A recently discovered 11th-century illustrated astronomical >and geographical treatise. > >An illustrated lecture by Dr. Jeremy Johns and Dr. Emilie Savage-Smith > >The Oriental Institute, University of Oxford > >Only very recently have scholars learned of the existence of a manuscript >containing a highly illustrated treatise on astronomy and geography >compiled by an unknown author in the late 11th century using predominately >11th-century sources. This is the only known copy and was probably made in >Egypt in the 12th or 13th century. The treatise is divided into two books: >one concerned with astronomy, containing an illustrated discussion of >comets and numerous star-groups; the other devoted to geography and to >natural and supernatural phenomena, which contains seventeen maps >including two world maps of great importance and the earliest recorded >maps of the islands of Cyprus and Sicily. Most of the maps are without >parallel in any other Arabic, Persian, Greek, or Latin works. It is a most >exciting discovery, and this lecture will be the first time "The Book of >Curiosities " has been discussed in a public forum. > >Society for the History of Medieval Science and Technology > >16 March 2002.2:30 PM > >Imperial College London Seminar Room 5, 5th Floor Sherfield Building _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:33:48 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] Nordic map exhibition Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["Joan Jastrebski" ] Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:00:42 -0500 EXHIBITION OF RARE EARLY MAPS TO OPEN AT SCANDINAVIA HOUSE Scandia: Important Early Maps of the Northern Regions and Maps and Charts of Norway from the Collection of William B. and Inger G. Ginsberg April 17 - August 16, 2002 The exhibition Scandia: Important Early Maps of the Northern Regions and Maps and Charts of Norway from the Collection of William B. and Inger G. Ginsberg opens at Scandinavia House on April 17. On view through August 16, 2002, this exhibition of 76 early maps and sea charts presents some of the most significant maps in the history of printed cartography of Scandinavia and Norway. The exhibition also includes half a dozen historically important world maps that illustrate the context in which the mapping of Scandinavia took place. From antiquity to the present day, cartography has both enhanced and reflected our understanding of the world. Ancient maps depict gods and monsters, celestial bodies, and earthly terrain, demonstrating not only man's knowledge of natural boundaries, but his view of his place in the world. This exhibition celebrates the earliest maps of Scandinavia, from the first map of the area in 1482, to the sumptuous maps of the major cartographers of the 17th century, to the detailed maps made by 19th century Scandinavians. The diversity of source, purpose, and function of these maps, together with their elements of science and fantasy, decoration and utility, and history and propaganda, make them fascinating objects for study, appreciation, and enjoyment. Edward P. Gallagher, President of The American-Scandinavian Foundation (ASF), says, "For more than 90 years, the ASF has been dedicated to increasing the understanding and appreciation of Scandinavia in the United States. The exhibition accomplishes this admirably while also providing a broad historical perspective and unique visual pleasures. We extend our hearty thanks to Inger and William Ginsberg for sharing their collection and vision with us." While the maps in the exhibition contain elaborate decorative elements, they have been selected primarily for their importance in the history of cartography. They include maps printed from wood blocks and from copper plates, maps contained in books of maps (though not necessarily atlases in the modern sense of the word), maps published separately, and maps included as illustrations in books. The first part of the exhibition, "Important Early Maps of the Northern Regions," covers the earliest period of printed maps of Scandinavia, specifically 1482 to 1601. The 43 maps comprising this section include the first printed map of Scandinavia (published in Ulm in 1482), maps of Scandinavia and Denmark from the first modern atlas (published by Abraham Ortelius in 1570), and rare world maps by Gastaldi (1546) and Rosaccio (a wall map first published in 1597). The second part is devoted to "Maps of Norway, 1602-1795" and "Sea Charts of Norway, 1585-1798." Among the 33 maps in this section are the first map showing Norway alone, the first map of Norway drawn and issued by a Norwegian cartographer, and a sea chart from the first official coastal survey of Norway. Gallery talks will be held at 12:30 p.m. on four Tuesdays: April 30, May 7 and 21, and June 4. SYMPOSIUM: Mapping the Scene: Antique Maps and the 21st Century This symposium explores both the practical aspects of developing a map collection and the intellectual pursuit and study of historical documents. Moderated by John Noble Wilford, senior science writer at The New York Times and author of The Mapmakers (Knopf, 2000), the panel will include Robert Augustyn, partner, Martayan Lan, Inc. Fine Antique Maps and Rare Books, New York; Alice C. Hudson, Chief, Map Division, The New York Public Library; and Dr. Seymour Schwartz, map collector and author of The Mapping of America (Abrams, 1980), which has recently been released in a new edition. Saturday, April 20, 3:00 p.m. Tickets: $15, $10 American-Scandinavian Foundation members Publication An 96-page catalogue with 76 illustrations, many in color, will be available for $25 in The Shop@Scandinavia House. The catalogue provides extensive discussion of the relevant history of cartography and of the most important cartographers of these areas. It also includes a selective annotated bibliography pointing the way to relevant reference material for the viewer of this exhibition who is interested in learning more about cartography in general or the mapping of Scandinavia and Norway in particular. Scandinavia House: The Nordic Center in America Scandinavia House is the home of The American-Scandinavian Foundation, which has been promoting educational and cultural exchange between the U.S. and the Nordic countries since 1910. The center brings to life the rich cultures and traditions of the five Nordic countries - Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden. A destination for New Yorkers and visitors to the city, Scandinavia House presents a wide variety of exhibitions and programs, including films, concerts, lectures, and additional events encompassing the visual and performing arts, literature, technology, science and business. Scandinavia House is open to the public Tuesday through Saturday from 12:00 to 6:00 p.m. Transportation: By bus, Number 1, 2, 3, or 4 up Madison Avenue; Number 1, 2, 3, or 5 down Fifth Avenue. By subway, Number 6 to 33rd Street, Number 4, 5, 6, 7, or S to 42nd Street/Grand Central Station. The American-Scandinavian Foundation (ASF) Founded in 1910, the ASF serves as the leading educational and cultural link between the United States and the five Nordic countries: Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, and Sweden. It is a publicly-supported, nonprofit organization that provides a forum for the exchange of ideas and cultural understanding and carries on an extensive program of fellowships, grants, trainee placement, publishing, membership offerings, and cultural activities. The Foundation has more than 6,000 members throughout the United States, and alumni and donors worldwide. It is governed by a Board of Trustees that includes individuals from the United States and Scandinavia. The five Nordic heads of state serve as the Foundation's patrons. Public Information: For information about exhibitions and other programs at Scandinavia House, the public should contact The American-Scandinavian Foundation at 212-879-9779. Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Subject: RE: [MapHist] Menzies RGS lecture Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:10:41 -0000 Thread-Topic: [MapHist] Menzies RGS lecture Thread-Index: AcHQMSVC9RLzxo+FS+m21gyCckEENQAhwmug From: "Gillian Hutchinson" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id KAA19603 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Yes, that's right. Thank you for that observation. Gillian Hutchinson -----Original Message----- From: George S. Carhart [mailto:gcarhart@usm.maine.edu] Sent: 20 March 2002 15:53 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Menzies RGS lecture I have posted this as a reply to Dr. Gillian Hutchinson on maphist even though it is not a cartographic question. There is so much being discussed here about Mr. Menzies' thesis and all of the aspects of his thesis should be examined before an opinion can be formed. a side question to the greater historical and history of cartography questions raised by Mr Menzies' RGS lecture. Did Mr. Menzies use the word "Mahogany" when he described the 'very large shipwrecks' discovered in the Caribbean? Did he emphasize that because these vessels were made of mahogany it in some way inferred a Chinese origin? If so I would like to point out that Mahogany (Swietenia mahagoni) is indigenous to Central and South America. Honduran Mahogany (Swietenia macropilla) is the variety that is most suited to maritime use. Chinese wooden vessels are and were generally constructed of Teak. Therefore I am not clear as to the significance of the mentioning that the shipwrecks are vessels made of mahogany. George Carhart On 18 Mar 2002, at 11:34, Gillian Hutchinson wrote: I went to Gavin Menzies' RGS lecture on Friday. It was hugely well received (evangelist flavour about it all) and the place was thick with journalists and TV crews, so this idea is not going to fade away in a hurry. Here for fellow Maphisters are some notes on the gist of the argument (though I may not have grasped it too well).  Assertion - the great Chines voyage of 1421-1423 didn't just confine itself to Asia and Africa but also took in the N half of Australiaand both coasts of the Americas. The proof for this is Chinese artefacts and memorial stones [but questionable dating evidence] and the fact that 'yellow-skinned people' met Columbus and other European explorers in unexpected places [?]. Plus 'very large mahogany shipwrecks' have been discovered in the Caribbean [I do hope they won't be destroyed by the expectations put on them].  The director of underwater archaeology for the Philippines spent 15 mins describing the wreck of a medieval coaster from the China, Vietnam andPhilippines trade. Although interesting, it didn't advance Menzies' argument other than that it an anthracite dish found in it 'very probably came from S America because it was a sort used for grinding maize' [?].  There is a medieval Chinese book which has drawings of animals indigenous to S America. [I found this convincing. For the Chinese to get to S America, winds and currents would make it easier to go east around. Australia is also perfectly plausible.]  Now for the cartography. Menzies' assertion is that Nicolo da Conti, a Venetian who travelled with the Chinese fleet in the Indian Ocean, brought back charts which included the Americas and these were incorporated into a master chart in the possession of Dom Pedro. Columbus and Magellan had sight of this and so knew what they were doing. Magellan knew about his eponymous Straits and the Piri Reis [sic] chart shows the W coast of S America 'before Europeans set sail'. [Though presumably Vespucci was not the only one to follow up on Columbus and for every self-publicist there were others marked Commercial in Confidence.] The 1507 Waldseemuller world shows the W coast of California [not Atlantic Canada, then.] The accurate coastline of Africa in the 1502 Cantino chart must be due to Chinese navigators [Islamic cartographers aren't mentioned].  The 1424 Pizzigano chart shows Guadaloupe, identifiable by shape and volcano location. Carol Urness is credited with this and it looks convincing (Carol Urness was scheduled to speak but had to cancellast minute). What is less convincing is what I think Mr Menzies asserted, that it must have been the Chinese who did the charting, because the volcanoes erupted only in 1421.  Gillian Hutchinson Curator of the History of Cartography National Maritime Museum Greenwich London SE10 9NF George S. Carhart Cartographic Associate Osher Map Library Smith Center for Cartographic Education University of Southern Maine P.O. Box 9301 Portland, Maine 04104-9301 USA (207) 780-4910 gcarhart@usm.maine.edu _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Japanese cartography : bibliographies Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:32:57 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id KAA22715 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The references to volumes of the 'History of cartography' project (Chicago ; London : University of Chicago) need to be updated with, for example, entries in the annual 'Bibliography' of 'Imago Mundi' (ISSN 0308-5694). Since the publication of the 'Bibliography' compiled for vol. 47 (1995) there are about 65 monographs and periodical articles listed up to vol. 53 (2001). There are another 7 entries in the 'Imago Mundi Bibliography' (at press) for vol. 54 (2002). The question regarding your ability to read Japanese is, of course, very valid. Most of the items relating to the history of Japanese cartography listed in the 'IM Bibliography' are in that language although some also have a summary in English - in which case I make a note in the bibliographic description (the presence of a non-Japanese summary may indicate whether you need to call upon someone to translate the whole article if it looks promising!). Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps, RGS-IBG; Compiler of 'Imago Mundi Bibliography') f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] > -----Original Message----- > From: Giada Melani [SMTP:shishy10@yahoo.it] > Sent: 20 March 2002 18:59 > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: [MapHist] Japanese cartography > > I'm an Italian student of Florence University and I'm > looking for every kind of information about the > history of Japanese cartography (titles of books, > web-sites, journals...). > > Could anyone help me? > > shishy10@yahoo.it > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > La reginetta del pop è tornata! Ascolta'I'm Not A Girl, Not Yet A Woman' > su Yahoo! > http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/britney/ > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Book of Curiosities- lecture Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:46:52 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Along with Dr Catherine Delano Smith and Dr David Fletcher I was probably the only other 'map person' to attend the co-authored illustrated talk Saturday afternoon last. We were shown a map of Cyprus - amongst several others on colour slides - and I made pencil notes about them as they were shown and described. My notes, and the illustrated double-sided handout, are on the floor at home - alas. But tomorrow ... In the interim please bear in mind that the Bodleian Library, which hopes to purchase this MS, is still short of a few thousand pounds sterling to ensure its acquisition. Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps, RGS-IBG) f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] > -----Original Message----- > From: Len Berggren [SMTP:berggren@sfu.ca] > Sent: 21 March 2002 06:42 > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: Re: [MapHist] Book of Curiosities- lecture > > I join the line of those eager for more information on this topic. I'm > particularly interested in maps of Cyprus and would very much like to know > if it is possible to see a reproduction of the map in the manuscript. > Len Berggren > > >While many on the list are panting for specifics on a lecture recently > >delivered on Chinese maritime travels (and I wish my father were alive to > >hear the evidence, since this was an area of interest and expertise), I > am > >panting for information about the lecture recently posted by Tony > Campbell > >and hope someone can post more information: > > > >"The Book of Curiosities of the Branches, and Marvels from the Sources, > of > >Knowledge": A recently discovered 11th-century illustrated astronomical > >and geographical treatise. > > > >An illustrated lecture by Dr. Jeremy Johns and Dr. Emilie Savage-Smith > > > >The Oriental Institute, University of Oxford > > > >Only very recently have scholars learned of the existence of a manuscript > >containing a highly illustrated treatise on astronomy and geography > >compiled by an unknown author in the late 11th century using > predominately > >11th-century sources. This is the only known copy and was probably made > in > >Egypt in the 12th or 13th century. The treatise is divided into two > books: > >one concerned with astronomy, containing an illustrated discussion of > >comets and numerous star-groups; the other devoted to geography and to > >natural and supernatural phenomena, which contains seventeen maps > >including two world maps of great importance and the earliest recorded > >maps of the islands of Cyprus and Sicily. Most of the maps are without > >parallel in any other Arabic, Persian, Greek, or Latin works. It is a > most > >exciting discovery, and this lecture will be the first time "The Book of > >Curiosities " has been discussed in a public forum. > > > >Society for the History of Medieval Science and Technology > > > >16 March 2002.2:30 PM > > > >Imperial College London Seminar Room 5, 5th Floor Sherfield Building > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: robinson@max.icu.ac.jp X-Mailer: Macintosh Eudora Version 4.3.2-J Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:31:29 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Kenneth R. Robinson" Subject: [MapHist] re: Japanese cartography Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Maphisters, I have enjoyed this list very much since joining several months ago. By way of brief self-introduction, I am a historian of Korea, and specialize in Korean-Japanese relations in the fourteenth-sixteenth centuries. Current research has led me to Korean and Japanese maps. Returning for the moment to the interest in Japanese cartography that Giada Melani's query sparked, these homepages may be of interest to Maphisters in general, as well as to Giada Melani in particular. The first four, however, are in Japanese. An imaginative and extremely useful page prepared by Kobe University to display maps in its Sumita Collection. http://www.lib.kobe-u.ac.jp/sumita/map/ The personal homepage of SUGIMOTO Fumiko, a Japanese historian who specializes in Tokugawa period maps and maps in politics. She works at the Historiographical Institute (J. Shiryou hensanjo), University of Tokyo. http://www.hi.u-tokyo.ac.jp/personal/fumiko/index.htm A homepage displaying maps from an exhibition of MUROGA Nobuo's collection. http://ddb.libnet.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/exhibit/muroga/zuroku.html A homepage displaying maps from the Ashida Collection at Meiji University. http://www.lib.meiji.ac.jp/ashida/index.html In English, this page for European maps of Japan also may be helpful. http://www.rc.kyushu-u.ac.jp/~michel/serv/eujap/maps/index.html Also, I would like to remind Maphisters of Societa Geografica Italiana's "Carte di riso: Genti, paessagi, colori dell'Estremo Oriente nelle collezioni della Societa Geografica Italiana", Venice: Biblioteca Nazionale Marciana, 2001. In addition, easily recommended is this excellent book on world maps, in Japanese. MIYOSHI Tadayoshi. "Zusetsu sekai ko chizu korekushon", published in 1999 by Kawade shobou. The ISBN is: 4309726267. The price is 1,800 yen, or approximately US$20. Dr. Miyoshi is a curator at Kobe City Museum and very well informed. Finally, for the individual inquiring about Meiji-period cartography (whose name I lost, I apologize), the following article may be of interest. Nam, Young-woo. "Japanese Military Surveys of the Korean Peninsula in the Meiji Era." In Helen Hardacre, ed., with Adam L. Kern. New Directions in the Study of Meiji Japan. Leiden: Brill, 1997. Ken Robinson _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: krogt@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:09:36 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: Antw: [MapHist] Japanese cartography X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id PAA21063 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["Alfons Dufey" ] Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:49:22 +0100 Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, You might choose the following paper as a start: Ulrich Wattenberg, Maps and map collections in Japan. In: Brown, Yu-Ying, ed. Japanese Studies. London: British Library. 1990. (British Library occasional papers 11) 1990.53-56. Regards A. Dufey >>> shishy10@yahoo.it 20.03.02 19:59:10 >>> I'm an Italian student of Florence University and I'm looking for every kind of information about the history of Japanese cartography (titles of books, web-sites, journals...). Could anyone help me? shishy10@yahoo.it ______________________________________________________________________ La reginetta del pop è tornata! Ascolta'I'm Not A Girl, Not Yet A Woman' su Yahoo! http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/britney/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 11:38:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [MapHist] Nordic map exhibition X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 From: "Paul D. Boyd" Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Interesting exhibit and symposium, good Manhattan travel directions, but no address. Please provide. Thanks. Paul Boyd On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:33:48 +0100 owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) writes: > Non-member submission from ["Joan Jastrebski" > ] > > Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:00:42 -0500 > > EXHIBITION OF RARE EARLY MAPS TO OPEN AT SCANDINAVIA HOUSE > Scandia: Important Early Maps of the Northern Regions and Maps and > Charts > of Norway > from the Collection of William B. and Inger G. Ginsberg > April 17 - August 16, 2002 > > The exhibition Scandia: Important Early Maps of the > Northern > Regions and Maps and Charts of Norway from the Collection of William > B. and > Inger G. Ginsberg opens at Scandinavia House on April 17. On view > through > August 16, 2002, this exhibition of 76 early maps and sea charts > presents > some of the most significant maps in the history of printed > cartography of > Scandinavia and Norway. The exhibition also includes half a dozen > historically important world maps that illustrate the context in > which the > mapping of Scandinavia took place. > From antiquity to the present day, cartography has both > enhanced > and reflected our understanding of the world. Ancient maps depict > gods and > monsters, celestial bodies, and earthly terrain, demonstrating not > only > man's knowledge of natural boundaries, but his view of his place in > the > world. This exhibition celebrates the earliest maps of Scandinavia, > from > the first map of the area in 1482, to the sumptuous maps of the > major > cartographers of the 17th century, to the detailed maps made by 19th > > century Scandinavians. The diversity of source, purpose, and > function of > these maps, together with their elements of science and fantasy, > decoration > and utility, and history and propaganda, make them fascinating > objects for > study, appreciation, and enjoyment. > Edward P. Gallagher, President of The American-Scandinavian > > Foundation (ASF), says, "For more than 90 years, the ASF has been > dedicated > to increasing the understanding and appreciation of Scandinavia in > the > United States. The exhibition accomplishes this admirably while > also > providing a broad historical perspective and unique visual > pleasures. We > extend our hearty thanks to Inger and William Ginsberg for sharing > their > collection and vision with us." > While the maps in the exhibition contain elaborate > decorative > elements, they have been selected primarily for their importance in > the > history of cartography. They include maps printed from wood blocks > and > from copper plates, maps contained in books of maps (though not > necessarily > atlases in the modern sense of the word), maps published separately, > and > maps included as illustrations in books. > The first part of the exhibition, "Important Early Maps of > the > Northern Regions," covers the earliest period of printed maps of > Scandinavia, specifically 1482 to 1601. The 43 maps comprising this > > section include the first printed map of Scandinavia (published in > Ulm in > 1482), maps of Scandinavia and Denmark from the first modern atlas > (published by Abraham Ortelius in 1570), and rare world maps by > Gastaldi > (1546) and Rosaccio (a wall map first published in 1597). > The second part is devoted to "Maps of Norway, 1602-1795" > and "Sea > Charts of Norway, 1585-1798." Among the 33 maps in this section are > the > first map showing Norway alone, the first map of Norway drawn and > issued by > a Norwegian cartographer, and a sea chart from the first official > coastal > survey of Norway. > > Gallery talks will be held at 12:30 p.m. on four Tuesdays: April 30, > May 7 > and 21, and June 4. > > > SYMPOSIUM: Mapping the Scene: Antique Maps and the 21st Century > This symposium explores both the practical aspects of developing a > map > collection and the intellectual pursuit and study of historical > documents. Moderated by John Noble Wilford, senior science writer > at The > New York Times and author of The Mapmakers (Knopf, 2000), the panel > will > include Robert Augustyn, partner, Martayan Lan, Inc. Fine Antique > Maps and > Rare Books, New York; Alice C. Hudson, Chief, Map Division, The New > York > Public Library; and Dr. Seymour Schwartz, map collector and author > of The > Mapping of America (Abrams, 1980), which has recently been released > in a > new edition. > > Saturday, April 20, 3:00 p.m. > Tickets: $15, $10 American-Scandinavian Foundation members > > > Publication > An 96-page catalogue with 76 illustrations, many in color, will be > available for $25 in The Shop@Scandinavia House. The catalogue > provides > extensive discussion of the relevant history of cartography and of > the most > important cartographers of these areas. It also includes a > selective > annotated bibliography pointing the way to relevant reference > material for > the viewer of this exhibition who is interested in learning more > about > cartography in general or the mapping of Scandinavia and Norway in > particular. > > Scandinavia House: The Nordic Center in America > Scandinavia House is the home of The American-Scandinavian > Foundation, > which has been promoting educational and cultural exchange between > the U.S. > and the Nordic countries since 1910. The center brings to life the > rich > cultures and traditions of the five Nordic countries - Denmark, > Finland, > Iceland, Norway and Sweden. > A destination for New Yorkers and visitors to the city, Scandinavia > House > presents a wide variety of exhibitions and programs, including > films, > concerts, lectures, and additional events encompassing the visual > and > performing arts, literature, technology, science and business. > > Scandinavia House is open to the public Tuesday through Saturday > from 12:00 > to 6:00 p.m. Transportation: By bus, Number 1, 2, 3, or 4 up > Madison > Avenue; Number 1, 2, 3, or 5 down Fifth Avenue. By subway, Number 6 > to > 33rd Street, Number 4, 5, 6, 7, or S to 42nd Street/Grand Central > Station. > > The American-Scandinavian Foundation (ASF) > Founded in 1910, the ASF serves as the leading educational and > cultural > link between the United > States and the five Nordic countries: Denmark, Finland, Iceland, > Norway, > and Sweden. It is a publicly-supported, nonprofit organization that > > provides a forum for the exchange of ideas and cultural > understanding and > carries on an extensive program of fellowships, grants, trainee > placement, > publishing, membership offerings, and cultural activities. The > Foundation > has more than 6,000 members throughout the United States, and alumni > and > donors worldwide. It is governed by a Board of Trustees that > includes > individuals from the United States and Scandinavia. The five Nordic > heads > of state serve as the Foundation's patrons. > > > Public Information: For information about exhibitions and other > programs > at Scandinavia House, the public should contact The > American-Scandinavian > Foundation at 212-879-9779. > > > Peter van der Krogt > List-owner MapHist > > List-info: http://www.maphist.nl > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of > Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility > for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jd1010247@pop.onemain.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 12:07:32 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "John W. Docktor" Subject: Re: [MapHist] Nordic map exhibition Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >Interesting exhibit and symposium, good Manhattan travel directions, but >no address. Please provide. Thanks. 58 Park Avenue, between 37th and 38th Streets. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John W. Docktor Phone: 717-846-8997 Fax: 717-845-9337 jdocktor@cyberia.com Cartography - Calendars of Events & Exhibitions: http://www.docktor.com/ Washington Map Society: http://www.washmap.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: seaver@seaver.pobox.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:05:46 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Paul S. Seaver" Subject: Re: [MapHist] Nordic map exhibition Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Friends, The upcoming N.Y. exhibition of maps illuminating the early cartography of Norway and other Nordic countries will be well worth seeing for those lucky enough to be in the neighborhood. In only a slightly different form (e.g., with contributions from the Map Department of the Norwegian National Library in Oslo), both parts of the exhibition recently enjoyed great success in Oslo. I have the catalogs for both and have nothing but praise for the care and knowledge which Mr. Ginsberg brought to this task as well as to his collecting. Kirsten A. Seaver -- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Book of Curiosities- lecture : notes Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:32:37 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 As promised yesterday I have retrieved both the 'official' handout and my manuscript notes from off my floor. 1) [official double-sided A4 coloured printed handout headed:] 'The Book of Strange Arts and Visual Delights = Ghara'ib al-funun wa-mulah al'uyun : An acquisition of immense importance for the Bodleian Library'. Sections headed: 'The opportunity' ; 'The manuscript' ; 'Content of the manuscript' ; 'Scientific importance of the manuscript' ; 'Importance for the Bodleian's collections' ; and 'Preserving history for perpetuity'. Ends: "For further information, please contact: Lesley Forbes, Keeper of Oriental Collections, Bodleian Library, [...] Oxford OX1 3BG ; email: lesley.forbes@bodley.ox.ac.uk ; [http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/oriental/] ; [or:] Hannah Lemon, Head of Development - University Libraries, Oxford University Development Office, Oxenford House, Magdalen Street, Oxford OX1 3AB ; email: hannah.lemon@devoff.ox.ac.uk ' [http://www.development.ox.ac.uk/libraries.html]" 2) [FH's scribbled notes:] Book One is of The Heavens ; Book Two of The Earth, and is based upon Ptolemy's 'Geography'. 17 maps: World map I (circular, S-oriented ; reminiscent of al-Idrisi map) ; World map II (rectangular, S-oriented ; shows tower/gateway built to keep out Gog and Magog) ; Indian Ocean (S-oriented); Mediterranean Sea (N-oriented, with place-names at 90 degrees to coastline - 'a la portolan chart') ; Caspian Sea ; Sicily (N-oriented) ; Mahdia (Tunisia ; not as a peninsula but as an island) ; Tiniis [east of Nile delta] ; Cyprus (29 ports marked and named) ; [Samos - Fethiye] (with inlets along Anatolian coast) ; [Lakes of the world (!)] (13 - including Mountains of the Moon) ; [Sources of the Nile (including Mtns of the Moon)] ; [River Nile] ; [R. Euphrates] ; [R. Tigris] ; [R. Indus (with mountains)] ; and [R.Oxus]. One map has a scale bar [!]. And a few more notes about possible author, place of compilation, and dating (there's a Coptic versus Syrian Christian calendar concordance, for example) but these are possibly available on the website(s). . Francis Herbert f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] > -----Original Message----- > From: Francis Herbert > Sent: 21 March 2002 09:47 > To: 'maphist@geog.uu.nl' > Subject: RE: [MapHist] Book of Curiosities- lecture > > Along with Dr Catherine Delano Smith and Dr David Fletcher I was probably > the only other 'map person' to attend the co-authored illustrated talk > Saturday afternoon last. We were shown a map of Cyprus - amongst several > others on colour slides - and I made pencil notes about them as they were > shown and described. My notes, and the illustrated double-sided handout, > are on the floor at home - alas. But tomorrow ... In the interim please > bear in mind that the Bodleian Library, which hopes to purchase this MS, > is still short of a few thousand pounds sterling to ensure its > acquisition. > > Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps, RGS-IBG) > f.herbert@rgs.org > http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] > > -----Original Message----- > From: Len Berggren [SMTP:berggren@sfu.ca] > Sent: 21 March 2002 06:42 > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: Re: [MapHist] Book of Curiosities- lecture > > I join the line of those eager for more information on this topic. > I'm > particularly interested in maps of Cyprus and would very much like > to know > if it is possible to see a reproduction of the map in the > manuscript. > Len Berggren > > >While many on the list are panting for specifics on a lecture > recently > >delivered on Chinese maritime travels (and I wish my father were > alive to > >hear the evidence, since this was an area of interest and > expertise), I am > >panting for information about the lecture recently posted by Tony > Campbell > >and hope someone can post more information: > > > >"The Book of Curiosities of the Branches, and Marvels from the > Sources, of > >Knowledge": A recently discovered 11th-century illustrated > astronomical > >and geographical treatise. > > > >An illustrated lecture by Dr. Jeremy Johns and Dr. Emilie > Savage-Smith > > > >The Oriental Institute, University of Oxford > > > >Only very recently have scholars learned of the existence of a > manuscript > >containing a highly illustrated treatise on astronomy and geography > >compiled by an unknown author in the late 11th century using > predominately > >11th-century sources. This is the only known copy and was probably > made in > >Egypt in the 12th or 13th century. The treatise is divided into two > books: > >one concerned with astronomy, containing an illustrated discussion > of > >comets and numerous star-groups; the other devoted to geography and > to > >natural and supernatural phenomena, which contains seventeen maps > >including two world maps of great importance and the earliest > recorded > >maps of the islands of Cyprus and Sicily. Most of the maps are > without > >parallel in any other Arabic, Persian, Greek, or Latin works. It is > a most > >exciting discovery, and this lecture will be the first time "The > Book of > >Curiosities " has been discussed in a public forum. > > > >Society for the History of Medieval Science and Technology > > > >16 March 2002.2:30 PM > > > >Imperial College London Seminar Room 5, 5th Floor Sherfield > Building > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of > Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility > for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: maphist@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:29:45 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] Isolarii Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["Mira Miletic" ] Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:12:35 +0100 Dear Sir/Madam, I thank you for your kind answer to my request about Fernando Bertelli's = Isolario (1568), Domenico Zenoi's Isolario and the Henry de Beauvau's = volume (1615), which I appreciate very much. Best regards, Anica Kisi=E6, Mr. sc. The main Curator _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" , "*Lismaps" Subject: [MapHist] Death of Professor David Quinn Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 17:46:10 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
      [sent to MapHist and lismaps by <t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk>]
 
Those who knew him will be saddened to learn that Professor David Quinn died at the
age of 92 on March 19th.
 
I am forwarding this information because nobody else appears to have done so.
 
There will certainly be a wide range of obituaries and tributes to this gentle man, a towering figure in the field (especially) of British discovery and settlement of North America.
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: seaver@seaver.pobox.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:53:18 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Paul S. Seaver" Subject: Re: [MapHist] Death of Professor David Quinn Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Re: [MapHist] Death of Professor David Quinn
There are many indeed who will want to echo Tony's tribute to David Quinn.  Some of you on the list might like to know that the funeral is taking place at the Springwood Crematorium, Liverpool, at noon on Thursday 28 March.

Even when David's health was failing, his mind remained clear and his commitment to scholarship strong.  He was unstintingly generous with his vast knowledge and thus set an example for us all.

Kirsten A. Seaver

     [sent to MapHist and lismaps by <t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk>]
 
Those who knew him will be saddened to learn that Professor David Quinn died at the
age of 92 on March 19th.
 
I am forwarding this information because nobody else appears to have done so.
 
There will certainly be a wide range of obituaries and tributes to this gentle man, a towering figure in the field (especially) of British discovery and settlement of North America.


--
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Ed Dahl" To: "MapHist \(to post\)" Cc: "H G Jones" , "Sandy Bederman" , "Joyce Lorimer" Subject: [MapHist] David Beers Quinn (1909-2002) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:55:01 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 David Beers Quinn, FSHD (1909-2002) Compiled by Sanford H. Bederman, newsletter editor, for the next issue of _Terra Cognita: The Newsletter of the Society for the History of Discoveries_. (Editor’s note: Material for this brief remembrance is excerpted primarily from the citation written by H.G. Jones, and can be read in its entirety on the Society’s website: www.sochistdisc.org/quinn.htm. The Editor wishes also to thank Joyce Lorimer and Ed Dahl for their help in preparing this statement.) ***** Professor David Quinn died in Liverpool on 19 March 2002. In September 2001, he was the recipient of the first honor ever awarded by the SHD -- Fellow of the Society for the History of Discoveries (FSHD). Born in Ireland on 24 April 1909, Quinn until the age of 14 attended a one-teacher school. He graduated from Queen’s University, Belfast in 1931, and received the Ph.D. degree in 1934 from King’s College, London. He taught for several years in Southampton, and returned to his alma mater in 1939. He moved to University College, Swansea in 1944, and then to the University of Liverpool in 1957, where, until his retirement, he wrote, taught, and mentored many students who became distinguished scholars in their own right. He was only 31 when the Hakluyt Society published his two-volume documentary, _The Voyages and Colonising Enterprises of Sir Humphrey Gilbert_ (1940). The Hakluyt Society published another two-volume work in 1955 -- _The Roanoke Voyages 1584-1590: Documents to Illustrate the English Voyages to North America under the Patent Granted to Walter Raleigh in 1584._ Other works in which Quinn was involved published by the Hakluyt Society were _Richard Hakluyt, The Principall Navigations, Voiages and Discoveries of the English Nation_ (with R.A. Skelton, 1965), _The Hakluyt Handbook_ (with Alison Quinn, 1974), _The English New England Voyages, 1602-1608_ (1983), and _Discourse on Western Planting_ (1993). Another well-known book he wrote (with Paul Hulton), again in two volumes, was _The American Drawings of John White_ (1964). Historians of the early exploration and mapping of North America may know Quinn better through his more popular works, _The Discovery of North America_ (with W.P. Cumming and R.A. Skelton, 1971), and _The Exploration of North America, 1630-1776_ (with W.P. Cumming et al., 1974). Quinn had the reputation of being the “pre-eminent authority on the history of early European exploration of North America.” In an address to the American Historical Association in 1986 titled “Reflections,” he said “I have thought of myself very much as a historical work horse, clearing the way through documentary tangles for others to follow.” It was Quinn who made the most compelling arguments for the possibility of the English discovery of America between 1480 and 1484. H.G. Jones spoke for our entire learned society when he exclaimed: “David Quinn stood as a giant among specialists in the history of discovery and exploration.” ***** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: krogt@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:47:01 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] Japan - A Cartographic Vision X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id KAA19859 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["L. Walter ,HKK Tokyo" ] Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:28:31 +0900 Prestel Publishers are still at the same address in Munich. However, Japan - A Cartographic Vision is out of print. As Prestel wanted to dispose of the remaining copies, I have bought those from them, and they are now available from me directly at US$ 75 plus shipping. In the US they may be also obtained from Manasek, in the Netherlands from Hotei Publishing, and in the UK from Map Collector Publications, all at their respective retail prices. Lutz Walter 7-5-56 Akasaka Tokyo 107-0052 Fax +813 3751 7970 Ed Dahl, 1292 Montée Paiement, Gatineau (Québec) J8R 3K5 CANADA INTERNET: edahl@iosphere.net TEL: (819) 561-4029 FAX: (819) 561-7753 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul D. Boyd" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] Japanese cartography Also see the book Japan: A Cartographic Vision -- European Printed Maps from the Early 16th to the 19th Century. Lutz Walter (ed.) on behalf of the German East-Asiatic Society (OAG), Tokyo, on the occasion of its 120th aniversary. Published by Prestel-Verlag, Munich and New York in 1994, in both German and English editions. In the 1994 book, Prestel in Munich is at Mandlstrasse 26, 80802 Munich. Telephone (089) 38 17 09-0 Fax (089) 38 17 09 35. May have moved 8 years later??? Paul Boyd ___________________________________________________ On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:25:09 EST MKBabinski@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 3/20/2002 2:19:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, > shishy10@yahoo.it writes: > > > I'm an Italian student of Florence University and I'm > > looking for every kind of information about the > > history of Japanese cartography (titles of books, > > web-sites, journals...). > > > Book - 'ISLES OF GOLD: ANTIQUE MAPS OF JAPAN' by Hugh Cortazzi, > published Sept. 1983. Cortazzi has also other publications on Japan. > Mark ______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:15:16 -0400 (AST) From: James Boxall To: MapHist Subject: [MapHist] Princely States India; maps? Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I have a researcher looking for a "usable" image of the Princely States in Punjab. I have found several maps that show where the states were generally, but nothing that labels each State. One of the supposed four states (Patiala) seems to still exist as a district of Punjab, but I have nothing on hand to tell me if the boundary has changed. (btw...i have found some very interesting web sites, and a few books i did not know we had.....all interesting...but just not the same as a good map :-) thanks in advance james James Boxall Curator/Head Map and Geospatial Information Collection Killam Library Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada B3H 4H8 902-494-3757 (tel) 902-494-2062 (fax) jcboxall@is.dal.ca magic.library.dal.ca Immediate Past-President, Association of Canadian Map Libraries and Archives (ACMLA) www.acmla.org _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" , "*Lismaps" Subject: [MapHist] Clive Burden Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:58:23 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
    [posted to MapHist and lismaps by < t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk >]
 
An obituary of Clive Burden, written by Yolande Hodson, appeared in today's Times newspaper.  He died on 7 January.
 
Besides being a map and printdealer, Clive gathered together the finest private collection of British county atlases and significant separate maps. 
 
The collection, which has been widely used by British carto-bibliographers, remains with his son, Philip, author of 'The Mapping of North America'.
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Ottomantom@cs.com Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 22:20:34 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Book of Curiosities- lecture : notes To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 6.0 for Windows US sub 10511 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Once again members of MAPHIST are indebted to Francis Herbert for providing some information about this extraordinary new cartographic find. To think that it has a scale bar!
Thank you Francis,
Tom Goodrich X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: philhoehn@juno.com X-Original-From: philhoehn@juno.com Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 18:00:37 GMT To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Historic Boston GIS site X-Mailer: Juno Webmail Version 1.0 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Boston GIS and Historical Maps from the David Rumsey Collection David Rumsey Collection announces the addition of 18 historical maps of the Boston area from 1776 through 1897 for viewing in its GIS Browser -- available online at www.davidrumsey.com. The GIS Browser allows integration and interaction of historical maps with current geospatial data and other historical maps. Additional historic maps of U.S. cities will be added in the near future including Washington, New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Denver, and Seattle. The current geospatial data that can be overlaid and compared to the historical maps includes roads, lakes, parks, state boundaries, digital orthophotos (aerial photography), topographic mapsheets, digital elevation models and satellite imagery. The GIS Browser is available in two versions on the site, a GIS Basic Browser for those new to GIS and a GIS Professional Browser for those familiar with GIS conventions. Phil Hoehn, Librarian David Rumsey Collection San Francisco philhoehn@juno.com http://www.davidrumsey.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:01:54 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] MASON-DIXON MAP To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 256 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear MapHisters,

The results are in for the sale of the Mason-Dixon map at Christie's in New York today. Hammer Price: $500,000 [with Sale Commission (multi-step rate structure): $556,000].

Malcolm Forbes' rate of return on this map "investment" (which he bought 20 years ago for $396,000 at the same auction house):

1.173% per year.

Antique maps as financial investments? - very bad!
Antique maps for enjoyment? - a lot of fun!

Mark
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:13:53 EST Subject: [MapHist] MASON-DIXON MAP vs. other Americana To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 256 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear MapHisters,

I was really amazed at the measly return obtained by Malcolm Forbes on his Mason-Dixon map. However, I reviewed a few other items sold today at Christie's Forbes' Americana sale (the results are already posted on the web) and am happy to note that he did much better "investment"-wise on other lots. I call to your attention Lot No. 87 - a 33-word manuscript note from Abraham Lincoln:

"The lady--bearer of this--says she has two sons who want to work. Set them at it, if possible. Wanting to work is so rare a merit, that it should be encouraged."

It sold in February 1952 at Parke-Bernet Galleries (predecessor of Sotheby's) for $2,000. Today it was resold for $666,000 (Buyer's Premium included). Here the increase in value over the past 50 years was a more respectable $12.32%.

If only Honest Abe could know that some day his writings would be worth $20,000 per word or about $5,500 per letter!

Now, if only our American attorneys, who saturate the courts with voluminous briefs in an effort to extract as much as they can from their clients (or should I say - victims?), would take this to heart - BREVITY CAN PAY!!!

Mark
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: blr@raremaps.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:53:35 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Barry Ruderman Subject: Re: [MapHist] MASON-DIXON MAP vs. other Americana Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Mark,

I think your thesis on map investing is fundamentally flawed.

The Forbes/Mason-Dixon map is a manuscript item.  While it may attract certain map collectors, the "Americana" and manuscript collectors are a significant, if not a driving influence on this item...this is an instance where the buyer is not a map collector per se.    It also hits a major confluence of regional collectors...being of the highest importance to collectors of Pennsylvania, Maryland and Delaware, three groups that often don't compete for the same material.  In evaluating a one of a kind, multiple crossover antiquity, you simply cannot make a broad generalization.

Antique maps, at least in the context of your thesis, are prints.  Most antique map dealers stay away from manuscript material almost completely.  Most Americana collectors and manuscript collectors are not map collectors per se.

While original source material is always great fun, comparing the return on a manuscript map is not a valid subject for analysis on the return for antique maps. 

Obviously, you need to set parameters.  Many great books are driven by the value of their maps. Some maps are worth more out of the book than in the book.  Some atlases are worth much more complete than as parts.  Is a small manuscript map of no consequence in an important book a map or a book?  Is an inconsequential narrative on the back of an important map a manuscript?  Is a general's contemporary battle report on the verso of an important printed map a "map" or a "manuscript."   There is no exact science for evaluating the hybrids...and that is what the Mason Dixon manuscript item is, a collecting hybrid, that draws from more than one collecting group.

Those are my thoughts.

Barry



At 10:13 PM 3/27/2002 -0500, you wrote:
Dear MapHisters,

I was really amazed at the measly return obtained by Malcolm Forbes on his Mason-Dixon map. However, I reviewed a few other items sold today at Christie's Forbes' Americana sale (the results are already posted on the web) and am happy to note that he did much better "investment"-wise on other lots. I call to your attention Lot No. 87 - a 33-word manuscript note from Abraham Lincoln:

"The lady--bearer of this--says she has two sons who want to work. Set them at it, if possible. Wanting to work is so rare a merit, that it should be encouraged."

It sold in February 1952 at Parke-Bernet Galleries (predecessor of Sotheby's) for $2,000. Today it was resold for $666,000 (Buyer's Premium included). Here the increase in value over the past 50 years was a more respectable $12.32%.

If only Honest Abe could know that some day his writings would be worth $20,000 per word or about $5,500 per letter!

Now, if only our American attorneys, who saturate the courts with voluminous briefs in an effort to extract as much as they can from their clients (or should I say - victims?), would take this to heart - BREVITY CAN PAY!!!

Mark
 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 07:33:17 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [MapHist] MASON-DIXON MAP vs. other Americana Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 There is another point to be made regarding the issue of investing in antiquarian maps, which has surrounded the above thread. Should map dealers be promoting these as investment vehicles? A number of us do not think so, for varied of reasons, and this will be part of the ethical guideline statement for the new IAMA (International Antiquarian Map-Dealers Association) that we hope to open for membership by June or July. A similar statement is contained within the ethical code of the ABAA. The following phrase (or something very close to it) will appear in the IAMA's Code of Ethics:

"Members should not promote the antiquarian maps or related materials as investment vehicles in themselves, or as part of investment schemes."

               Joel Kovarsky

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Hyman, John" To: "'maphist@geog.uu.nl'" Subject: RE: [MapHist] MASON-DIXON MAP vs. other Americana Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:16:38 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Joel: Good for you.   I know from experience that people in the silver trade always, maybe it's unconscious but it's always implied and often implicitely stated, that silver objects represent a good investment.    All objects are included, even the third-rate nebbish bits that wind up in remaindered lots in the secondary sales.    It's overselling in the worst way and furthermore, it's simply untrue - to give a minor but obvious reason - because styles change and values (which are market-driven) change with them.
 
From another point of view, it changes the focus from pleasure, where it belongs, to venality, which should not,because it dilutes the pleasure of acquisition and diminishes the inherent qualities of the object in question.
 
Stick with it.
 
John

[Hyman, John]  -----Original Message-----
From: Joel Kovarsky [mailto:jsk@gamewood.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 7:33 AM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] MASON-DIXON MAP vs. other Americana

There is another point to be made regarding the issue of investing in antiquarian maps, which has surrounded the above thread. Should map dealers be promoting these as investment vehicles? A number of us do not think so, for varied of reasons, and this will be part of the ethical guideline statement for the new IAMA (International Antiquarian Map-Dealers Association) that we hope to open for membership by June or July. A similar statement is contained within the ethical code of the ABAA. The following phrase (or something very close to it) will appear in the IAMA's Code of Ethics:

"Members should not promote the antiquarian maps or related materials as investment vehicles in themselves, or as part of investment schemes."

               Joel Kovarsky

 X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MarkBabi@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:14:07 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] MASON-DIXON MAP vs. other Americana To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 259 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 3/28/2002 12:06:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, blr@RAREMAPS.COM writes:


There is no exact science for evaluating the hybrids...and that is what the Mason Dixon manuscript item is, a collecting hybrid, that draws from more than one collecting group.

OK,OK,OK. I see the point. One map does not a trend make. But, it will be interesting to compare resale prices of other rare maps in the future. Mark X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: blr@raremaps.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 17:49:13 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Barry Ruderman Subject: Re: [MapHist] MASON-DIXON MAP vs. other Americana Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Mark,

you said: "interesting to compare resale prices"

I say: right on....antique maps, statistical analysis and economics rolled into one.  I'd have written my senior thesis on this if I had any forsight.

Barry


At 12:14 PM 3/28/2002 -0500, you wrote:
In a message dated 3/28/2002 12:06:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, blr@RAREMAPS.COM writes:


There is no exact science for evaluating the hybrids...and that is what the Mason Dixon manuscript item is, a collecting hybrid, that draws from more than one collecting group.

OK,OK,OK. I see the point. One map does not a trend make. But, it will be interesting to compare resale prices of other rare maps in the future. Mark
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 18:43:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Lester Subject: [MapHist] Where did the name Morgania come from? To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Hello, I recently saw the name Morgania (or something very similar) for the region near present-day Missouri on a 1799 map of the United States. Does anyone know more details about this name? Thanks, ===== Jay Lester Chapel Hill, NC mapsguy@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: catherine.hofmann@BNF.FR X-Lotus-FromDomain: BNF To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:30:28 +0100 Subject: [MapHist] Conf. Paris/EPHE : F. Prontera X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id NAA13997 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 You will find below the programm of lectures that M. Francesco Prontera is presenting in Mai 2002 in Paris at the "Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes" about the topic "Geography and history in the classical world" . Catherine Hofmann Bibliothèque nationale de France Cartes et Plans École Pratique des Hautes Études Sciences Historiques et Philologiques à la Sorbonne 45-47 rue des Ecoles, esc. E, 1er étage, 75005 Paris Dans le cadre des conférences de MM. Jean-Louis Ferrary et Patrick Gautier Dalché, directeurs d?études Monsieur FRANCESCO PRONTERA Professeur à l?Université de Pérouse donnera quatre conférences sur le thème Géographie et histoire dans le monde antique Jeudi 2 mai 2002, de 11h à 13h : Ghès periodoi et periploi, VIe-IVe s. Salle d?histoire, durant le séminaire de M. Patrick Gautier Dalché. Jeudi 16 mai 2002, de 11h à 13h : L??uvre d?Ératosthène : fondements empiriques et scientifiques. Salle d?histoire, durant le séminaire de M. Patrick Gautier Dalché. Mercredi 29 mai 2002, de 9h à 11h : Topographie, chorographie et carte du monde chez Polybe. Salle d?Égyptologie, durant le séminaire de M. Jean-Louis Ferrary. Jeudi 30 mai 2002, de 11h à 13h : Strabon et la géographie romaine. Salle d?histoire, durant le séminaire de M. Patrick Gautier Dalché. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Hyman, John" To: "'maphist@geog.uu.nl'" Subject: [MapHist] what diifference does profit make? Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:09:55 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
I think our discussions of the financial aspects of collecting maps, are not specific enough.  
 
The price for fine, rare and important objects will always hold, but with this demurrer: will hold relative to the overall market.   If there is a depression, everything is depressed.
 
On the other hand, less meaningful objects, poor quality objects, more plentiful objects will never appreciate to the same extent; they are more easily acquired, purchase is deferrable, they do not benefit from rarity or symbolic value.
 
But then, if you treat each element in your collection as a potential source of profit, you're not a collector, you're a joyless misanthrope.  Or a dealer but I've known dealers who take great
delight in their acquisitions.
 
John Hyman
 
 
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Ruderman [mailto:blr@RAREMAPS.COM]
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 8:49 PM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] MASON-DIXON MAP vs. other Americana

Dear Mark,

you said: "interesting to compare resale prices"

I say: right on....antique maps, statistical analysis and economics rolled into one.  I'd have written my senior thesis on this if I had any forsight.

Barry


At 12:14 PM 3/28/2002 -0500, you wrote:
In a message dated 3/28/2002 12:06:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, blr@RAREMAPS.COM writes:


There is no exact science for evaluating the hybrids...and that is what the Mason Dixon manuscript item is, a collecting hybrid, that draws from more than one collecting group.

OK,OK,OK. I see the point. One map does not a trend make. But, it will be interesting to compare resale prices of other rare maps in the future. Mark
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: ahudson@NYPL.ORG Subject: [MapHist] pre-twentieth century women in mapping To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, maps-l@listserv.uga.edu Cc: maps@fsi.net X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:04:51 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 03/29/2002 12:05:24 PM Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Please note that the latest issue of Cartographica, vol. 37, #3, Fall 2000 [!] publishes for the first time Mary McMichael Ritzlin and my little list of some 300 women involved in the map business prior to 1900. Mary tells me we have another hundred not yet in the published list...so down the road there will hopefully be an update. As with Tooley's Dictionary, often there is only a name, sometimes a line, sometimes a paragraph...sometimes more. This entire issue of Cartograhica focuses on women in cartography, so we are hopeful you will find it an eye opener. We are MOST HOPEFUL though, that once you have seen the list, you will keep us informed of new names to add to the list; or that you will commit to working up more details on the lives of some of these individual women; or if no women are on the list from your nation, you will seek them out. Reading the accompanying articles in Cartographica 37 will give you ideas where to look. Mary and I hope this list is just a beginning and an impetus to further work by others. We hand it off to you. Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:49:31 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Lester Subject: Re: [MapHist] pre-20th century women in mapping; Order Cartographica To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Cartographica can be ordered at the following web site: http://www.utpjournals.com/jour.ihtml?lp=carto/carto.html --- ahudson@NYPL.ORG wrote: > Please note that the latest issue of Cartographica, vol. 37, #3, Fall > 2000 > [!] publishes for the first time Mary McMichael Ritzlin and my little > list > of some 300 women involved in the map business prior to 1900. Mary > tells me > we have another hundred not yet in the published list...so down the > road > there will hopefully be an update. As with Tooley's Dictionary, > often > there is only a name, sometimes a line, sometimes a > paragraph...sometimes > more. > > This entire issue of Cartograhica focuses on women in cartography... ===== Jay Lester Chapel Hill, NC mapsguy@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:44:02 -0800 Subject: [MapHist] "Nancy and the Map of Europe"? From: "Penny L. Richards" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I recently stumbled on an image of the 1919 painting with this title, by Lilian Westcott Hale (1880-1963), at the following website: http://www.tfaoi.com/am/1am/1am198.jpg The site says only that the painting is in a private collection. Does anyone know any more about this painting, its whereabouts, anything? Penny L. Richards PhD Research Scholar, UCLA Center for the Study of Women Co-editor, H-Education and H-Disability turley2@earthlink.net _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:29:41 -0500 From: Overlee Farm Books X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] "Nancy and the Map of Europe"? Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS sna